Disc Golf Course Review Par Talk
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 View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open? A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00% A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67% A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17% A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0% A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17% Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

#1591
08-03-2017, 07:05 PM
 DG_player Birdie Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 499 Niced 128 Times in 87 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DavidSauls Since one of the hangups here is the "allow two throws at close range", I think that's how I'd ask it. "If I allow you two throws from here, is that enough? Are you close enough for that?"
Why don't we ask: "If I allow 5 throws from here, are you close enough for that?" Then everything becomes a par 2. How about we ask if 1 throw is close enough? It's a silly, pointless exercise.

All you are doing is assigning meaning that is not there. The par definition does not make reference to any amount of shots in defining close range.
#1592
08-03-2017, 07:17 PM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 23.5 Courses Played: 125 Posts: 14,311 Niced 2,137 Times in 1,018 Posts

It says that par is the expected score, and that we should allow 2 shots at close range. Doesn't say what close range is, other than it's the range we should allow 2 throws, to reach the expected score on that hole.

You offer your interpretation of "close"---when a player says throw landed close. I say that if you rephrase the question to match the definition---"are you close enough that allowing you 2 throws is enough"---they'll answer yes.
#1593
08-03-2017, 07:19 PM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 23.5 Courses Played: 125 Posts: 14,311 Niced 2,137 Times in 1,018 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DG_player Why don't we ask: "If I allow 5 throws from here, are you close enough for that?" .
We would, if the definition of par included "allowing 5 throws from close range.
#1594
08-03-2017, 07:21 PM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 23.5 Courses Played: 125 Posts: 14,311 Niced 2,137 Times in 1,018 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by lyleoross Houston, we have a par problem... Maybe? Somewhere in the bowels, Steve gave a list of the advantages of having accurate par. It's a nice summation.
My feeling has always been that it's not a big deal.

But if we're going to have "par"---and, clearly, we are---we might as well make it the best, most useful par we can.

 Niced: (1)
#1595
08-03-2017, 07:43 PM
 DG_player Birdie Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 499 Niced 128 Times in 87 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DavidSauls We would, if the definition of par included "allowing 5 throws from close range.
I'm not going to get into the grammatical nuances, but there's a simple grammar trick to figure out if something is saying what you think it does. Swap one word out with a word of similar type.

So instead of "Allowing two throws from close range to hole out", let's go with "allowing two throws from the teepad to hole out", or alternatively "allowing two throws from inside of the circle to hole out". Do you still believe that the two throws are defining close range?

Close range is completely undefined. The only logical way to assign any special meaning to it beyond common usage, would be to look at the intent of authors of the rule. As far as I know, nobody knows what this is. The best guess I heard is from Steve, with his suggestion that it is a homage to ball golf par. Well if that's the case, it clearly means the green, or at the minimum, the distance from which someone would attempt a putt of some sort.

I'm all ears if someone has some other insight into their intent. So far all I've heard is, "it must be 2 shots because 2 shots was mentioned elsewhere in the same sentence", which doesn't make any logical sense that I can see. And then somehow, this 2 shots is being stretched to the maximum distance where up and down can be confidently made, in spite of the fact that a pro player is probably expecting to make no better than a 2 all the way into 100 feet or closer.
#1596
08-03-2017, 07:45 PM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 23.5 Courses Played: 125 Posts: 14,311 Niced 2,137 Times in 1,018 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by lyleoross Houston, we have a par problem... Maybe? Somewhere in the bowels, Steve gave a list of the advantages of having accurate par. It's a nice summation.
Or Olorin will show up, and this will become a long thread.

 Niced: (1)
#1597
08-03-2017, 08:23 PM
 lyleoross * Ace Member * Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, TX Years Playing: 23 Courses Played: 2 Posts: 4,393 Niced 1,121 Times in 656 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DG_player I'm not going to get into the grammatical nuances, but there's a simple grammar trick to figure out if something is saying what you think it does. Swap one word out with a word of similar type. So instead of "Allowing two throws from close range to hole out", let's go with "allowing two throws from the teepad to hole out", or alternatively "allowing two throws from inside of the circle to hole out". Do you still believe that the two throws are defining close range? Close range is completely undefined. The only logical way to assign any special meaning to it beyond common usage, would be to look at the intent of authors of the rule. As far as I know, nobody knows what this is. The best guess I heard is from Steve, with his suggestion that it is a homage to ball golf par. Well if that's the case, it clearly means the green, or at the minimum, the distance from which someone would attempt a putt of some sort. I'm all ears if someone has some other insight into their intent. So far all I've heard is, "it must be 2 shots because 2 shots was mentioned elsewhere in the same sentence", which doesn't make any logical sense that I can see. And then somehow, this 2 shots is being stretched to the maximum distance where up and down can be confidently made, in spite of the fact that a pro player is probably expecting to make no better than a 2 all the way into 100 feet or closer.

What does it mean when you say you're not going to get into grammatical nuances and then do?

The only reason there's a discussion around close and two strokes is because people don't like what using the definition of par gets them. That's the simple discussion. If you go with the dictionary definition then you have to define what an experienced player is and you're done.
#1598
08-03-2017, 08:26 PM
 BogeyNoMore * Ace Member * Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Walled Lake, MI Years Playing: 14.6 Courses Played: 287 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 9,429 Niced 1,636 Times in 845 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DavidSauls Or Olorin will show up, and this will become a long thread.
Indeed... at just 160 pages this thread's just Rec level, and still has a way to go before it's full potential is realized.
#1599
08-03-2017, 08:48 PM
 DG_player Birdie Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 499 Niced 128 Times in 87 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by lyleoross What does it mean when you say you're not going to get into grammatical nuances and then do? The only reason there's a discussion around close and two strokes is because people don't like what using the definition of par gets them. That's the simple discussion. If you go with the dictionary definition then you have to define what an experienced player is and you're done.
What's the dictionary definition have to do with anything? The PDGA defined par, that's the definition as far as disc golf is concerned.

#1600
08-03-2017, 09:05 PM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 23.5 Courses Played: 125 Posts: 14,311 Niced 2,137 Times in 1,018 Posts

Excuse me, folks, I have to leave this discussion to go talk about the ADGT. I'll be back in a few weeks.