Balled up Disc

[foxdawg10]

Originally Posted by The Shide

"813.01 Illegal Disc
C. Other modifications to a disc after production make the disc illegal, including but not limited to:
1. Modifying the disc in a way that alters its original flight characteristics;"
To me, this sounds more of someone going to town with a sander, or whittling away, not balling up a soft disc.
Still not convinced.

There are 3 parts:

1) Modifying disc: Does bending the disc modify it? I would say yes
2) In anyway: Is not limited, bending the disc does modify the disc. Anyway covers both permanent and temporary methods
3) Alter it's original flight characteristics: Are the flight characteristics alter from the original? Of course they are.

Based on this I would that balling up a blowfly is illegal.

[Steve West]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Not unrelated. I pointed out the similarities. Remember that one of the first rules is about Fairness, using equivalent scenarios to determine a "fair" call. IMO, this scenario qualifies for that parallel equivalency with other mods allowed. You may disagree but the jury is still out obviously trying to add wording to justify their pre-conceived ideas towards non-legality.

You keep getting the relationship between fairness and following the rules wrong. When a child cried "unfair", they really mean "I didn't get what I wanted". You can't say "unfair" to undo any of the rules to get what you want.

The most unfair thing would be to let some players use their own rules. So, in the interest of actual fairness (which is not always getting what you want) the most important thing is to follow the rules. It says so right in that fairness rule you keep mis-remembering.

These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

The fairness rule does NOT give you the right to pick and choose aspects of any remotely related rule.

The only rule that applies here is that "Modifying the disc in a way that alters its original flight characteristics [makes the disc illegal]". And this rule covers the point in dispute. This is the closest existing rule.

The list of approved discs does not apply, the QA that allows various types of throws does not apply, the rule about night and snow play does not apply: No other rule comes even close to more directly addressing the situation.



As for the other point, there was no preconceived notion that balling up a disc should be illegal. Some on the RC went through all these same gyrations to try to read the rule in a way that would allow it.

However, the rule is so clear that no one - not here and not in the RC discussions - has made a dent in the interpretation that a balled-up disc is illegal to throw.


But, hey, it's still fun to try. And, it's good for the rules to be tested like this.

[BogeyNoMore]

I really was hoping to hear from someone from the "it's OK to ball up a floppy disc, and throw it in the basket" camp.

Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore

Hypothetical for those of you who say balling up a floppy blowfly/soft vibram disc is legal...

Then shouldn't it be legal with any PDGA approved disc?

Say it's so sweltering hot out, that my DX Roc becomes pliable and gooey. I wad it up into a sphere with my hands and chuck it in the basket.

...only it stays in a ball. It doesn't have the resilience to spring back to it's original shape. It's clearly no longer disc shaped. No mistaking that the damned thing's now a ball.

1) Was that putt shot legal?

2) OK for me to use that "disc" on the next hole?
I wanna pitch a fastball at the next Ace Run hole, or throw a great roller.

[dehaas]

I’m sure most of the discs in question would flop back to flat if thrown very hard at all, otherwise I could see that being an extremely useful throw getting out of thick woods.

[Cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by Steve West

However, the rule is so clear that no one - not here and not in the RC discussions - has made a dent in the interpretation that a balled-up disc is illegal to throw. But, hey, it's still fun to try. And, it's good for the rules to be tested like this.

"Modifying the disc in a way that alters its original flight characteristics" is clear that it should not be allowed. And yet, we all know that a disc that has been dinged or bent in some way upon contacting various objects is still legal to throw, even if its flight characteristics have changed, in addition to players bending, tweaking, flexing said disc back towards its original form. So, the RC is still stuck with the matter of defining how much modifying is really allowed because right now the rule is regularly violated, sort of like going 60 in a 55 where going 90 in a 55 is like balling the disc.

[txmxer]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

"Modifying the disc in a way that alters its original flight characteristics" is clear that it should not be allowed. And yet, we all know that a disc that has been dinged or bent in some way upon contacting various objects is still legal to throw, even if its flight characteristics have changed, in addition to players bending, tweaking, flexing said disc back towards its original form. So, the RC is still stuck with the matter of defining how much modifying is really allowed because right now the rule is regularly violated, sort of like going 60 in a 55 where going 90 in a 55 is like balling the disc.

Stop following me on the freeway.

[BogeyNoMore]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

"Modifying the disc in a way that alters its original flight characteristics" is clear that it should not be allowed. And yet, we all know that a disc that has been dinged or bent in some way upon contacting various objects is still legal to throw, even if its flight characteristics have changed, in addition to players bending, tweaking, flexing said disc back towards its original form. So, the RC is still stuck with the matter of defining how much modifying is really allowed because right now the rule is regularly violated, sort of like going 60 in a 55 where going 90 in a 55 is like balling the disc.

Dents, dings, gouges and the like that come with normal play, as well discs that have been tacoed, warped, etc....are one thing. Those "modifications" to flight characteristics are widely accepted as inherent to the game.

Modifying the flight by radically altering the shape from a basically flat disc shape (hence the name disc golf), to a spherical ball shape is something else entirely.

The trick is wording the rules to address the difference.

I was really hoping someone would answer my hypothetical question earlier. It shouldn't matter if the object thrown is restored to it's original shape after the throw, or not. Flight characteristics were modified by radically changing the shape of the disc from a flat, disc shape to a ball. Doesn't matter if it's for one shot or 54 shots. That just determines how many penalty strokes should be assessed.

If it's permissible for one shot, shouldn't it be permissible for all shots? Why does it matter if the disc is resilient enough to resume it's original shape? If it's OK, I want to call up an R-Pro dart so it is a permanent ball, and chuck it in the basket from 15 ft in, to eliminate spit outs.

[BillFleming]

The bad part of the rule not being enforced with Matt Bell is that other players start doing it. I've been in a tournament where someone balled up their putter and threw it. I've seen it in league play. "Everyone knows" it is legal because touring pro Matt Bell does it all the time without penalty. When I asked someone about it early in my playing days, that is what I was told.

[robdeforge]

when writing/explaining rules, it's always good to remember that DGCR is a certain subset of disc golfers that are probably a *little* more open to discussion and thinking than your average disc golfer might be. at least, reading through the comments of a Reddit thread where somebody posted Krupicka's email response about this issue certainly gives that impression

https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/co..._said_folding/

[VictorB]

Originally Posted by robdeforge

when writing/explaining rules, it's always good to remember that DGCR is a certain subset of disc golfers that are probably a *little* more open to discussion and thinking than your average disc golfer might be. at least, reading through the comments of a Reddit thread where somebody posted Krupicka's email response about this issue certainly gives that impression

https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/co..._said_folding/

100% agree, and I wish I hadn't posted a reply over there

I think until a clarification is officially released, that balling up a disc is legal as the rules are written. Why make a super floppy disc if not for doing weird stuff that harder plastic can't? It's not a permanent alteration or modification of the disc. However, I can understand if the rule needs to be expanded or clarified so we're actually throwing discs and not ball shaped plastic objects.

At this point, I'd say it's fine since the benefit of the doubt goes to the player and it's not immediately obvious as illegal reading the rule as written (or the known interpretation I've been going by)