#21  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:15 AM
roblee roblee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I may be misunderstanding the rule and some of the comments, but this is what I envisioned. The disc clears the mando, gets a tree kick and rolls backward on the wrong side of the mando and lays down on the mando line. It is my understanding, this is not a missed mando?

If it is not a missed mando, the player then must take a stance behind the mando line and make a throw from behind the mando line. Can the player throw the blue path, or must the next throw follow the green line?



Yes, this is just what I'm unclear about. The Lie Rectangle would put you in front of the Mando Plane. I see no mention of Relief similar to what is allowed from an OB Line.
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  #22  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:05 AM
auzcar auzcar is offline
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If you used a mini marker in this example your stance wouldn't be behind the restricted area anymore. Does that change the ruling in this case?
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  #23  
Old 01-03-2022, 09:42 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
Sorry, the above is okay or is not okay?
Weird, I responded, but I don't see my response. Let me try again.

As I understand your drawing.....
1. you have a double mando that the disc must pass between.
2. The disc successfully passed between the mandos.
3. The disc then hit the ground and rolled back onto the right-side mando line.
4. The disc came to rest ON the right-side mando line.

My understanding of the rule:
The mando only exists from one side. So when the disc passed between the mandos it was good - you "made" the mando.

Now your stance is on the 'tee side' of the mando, and your backswing takes the disc through the plane of the mando. (Again, my understanding) since the mando is only in effect from the tee side to the target side, the disc is not entering the mando since the backswing is from the target side to the tee side.

But regardless....remember, the disc is ON the mando plane/line, it is not full over it, so there wouldn't be a penalty.


That said, your drawing brings up a different question....what if the disc came to rest where it is in your drawing without passing the mandos? It did not fully enter the plane, so no penalty, but now you still have to throw between the mandos...what if your backswing takes it fully through the plane of the mando?
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Old 01-03-2022, 09:54 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Close.

The "restricted space" is a vertical plane, not an area on the ground. You're not allowed to throw your disc through the vertical plane.

On your drawing the mando was missed when the brown line first crossed the green line. Nothing after that matters. Take a penalty and go to the drop zone.

(Important note: This particular example would be a crappy way to design a mando because of the difficulty of actually seeing whether the brown line ever passed between the poles or not.)
Meant to respond to this before....it is actually easy to see if the disc passes between the poles. Like I said, it's a crappy picture, but got the main point across. The purpose of the double mando being near the OB is that the OB is a road, which curves. Before the mandos, people would throw across the road, which was a straighter shot to the target - since the disc passed OVER the OB and landed back in bounds....it was legal. So the first mando pole was put just off the front of the tee pad and the second one was put at the curve. Now players are not able to legally throw over the road.
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:38 AM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
My understanding of the rule:
The mando only exists from one side. So when the disc passed between the mandos it was good - you "made" the mando.
Your understanding is incorrect. There is no such thing as a made mandatory. That disappeared from the rule years ago... There is also now no directionality in missing a mandatory. If you miss it from either direction, you have missed it.

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Old 01-03-2022, 11:45 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. There is no such thing as a made mandatory. That disappeared from the rule years ago... There is also now no directionality in missing a mandatory. If you miss it from either direction, you have missed it.
Thanks for that information, I really thought mandos were in one direction. But now what about txmxr's question? The disc came to lie on the mando line. It has not fully entered the restricted area from either direction, so there's no penalty. But what happens when the player's reachback takes the disc entirely into the restricted area as part of their throw?
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Old 01-03-2022, 12:07 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Adding to Txmxr's question...

In my drawing, two player (red and green) have thrown. Both discs have landed on the mando line and neither entirely entered the restricted area.

1. Which direction does each need to be thrown?
- can red throw directly towards the basket?
- does green need to still throw 'around' the mando?
2. What is the rule if either player's disc entirely enters the restricted area during their backswing?
- red, throwing towards the basket, would be behind their lie and the disc most likely would enter the restricted area.
- likewise, green still having to go around the mando pole might have their disc fully enter the restricted area as part of their throw.
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  #28  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:23 PM
roblee roblee is offline
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Thank you MK. Your statement regarding either direction is what was needed to better understand the rule change. Can that be added? Now I still have a couple questions

804.01 C: "If a throw clearly and completely enters a restricted space, the player receives one penalty throw."

* Thinking the term "throw" could be "thrown disc".

* Does "clearly and completely enters" mean that "part" of the disc has clearly and completely broken the plane? (If the tip of an arrow penetrates out the back of a target it would be considered that "it went clear through"). i.e if the disc is merely touching the plane it would not be clearly and completely through. Or does it mean that the "entire" disc must completely pass through the plane? Either way maybe that term benefits from a definition?

I know you wanted simple but I envision a challenge trying to explain this rule in the field even with a rule book in hand.
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  #29  
Old 01-03-2022, 02:18 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblee View Post
Thank you MK. Your statement regarding either direction is what was needed to better understand the rule change. Can that be added? Now I still have a couple questions

804.01 C: "If a throw clearly and completely enters a restricted space, the player receives one penalty throw."

* Thinking the term "throw" could be "thrown disc".

* Does "clearly and completely enters" mean that "part" of the disc has clearly and completely broken the plane? (If the tip of an arrow penetrates out the back of a target it would be considered that "it went clear through"). i.e if the disc is merely touching the plane it would not be clearly and completely through. Or does it mean that the "entire" disc must completely pass through the plane? Either way maybe that term benefits from a definition?

I know you wanted simple but I envision a challenge trying to explain this rule in the field even with a rule book in hand.
The part about "throw" confuses me also. The throw includes the 'reachback'....maybe it needs to include the words "after release".

I'm also still confused on how if my disc passes on the correct side of a mando and then rolls back across the mando line it's now a penalty.
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  #30  
Old 01-03-2022, 09:32 PM
roblee roblee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
I'm also still confused on how if my disc passes on the correct side of a mando and then rolls back across the mando line it's now a penalty.
That part seems clear. If a disc crosses the plane any time & in any direction it is a penalty. Would have been helpful to state this in the PDGA summary but now we know thanks to Mike Krupicka's post above. This is in line with their priority to simplify the rules; no exceptions to breaking the plane. Since the mando line extends to infinity this foul could happen on second or more throws after making the mando. Consider a hole that dog-legs hard after the mando and you have to throw parallel to the restricted space line to reach the basket. In fact this makes me realize I need to re-mark one of our holes to prevent that travesty.

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