#31  
Old 01-07-2020, 06:57 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Southerner.
One thing that has come up is whether sliding the disc along the ground violates:
Is the snow directly assisting the throw? Is it a device? Discuss.
Every time I throw a disc I am being held up by the ground, directly assisting my throw by allowing me to push against it to generate rotation.
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  #32  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:17 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Absolutely my post addresses this directly. The hand pushing the disc past the mini and being in contact with the disc/ground in front of the mini is not illegal because THE DISC HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. Nothing that happens prior to release is relevant to the legality/illegality of the throw. It only matters where the supporting points are AT release.

802.04.B contains the definition of supporting point: "A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support."

If it's before the time of release, it's not a supporting point. It's not anything as pertains to the rules of play.
Totally agree with this, and have argued for it at length on FB. (Not that arguing at length is hard on FB.)

This is the special case where the point of contact with the disc that defines when the disc is released is also the point of contact with the playing surface. Release and contact can't co-exist.

And the Q&A section backs this up:
Quote:
QA-COM-1: If I have a drop-in, do I need to throw the disc in, or can I just place it in the tray and let go?

You can place it in the tray, but you must release it and let it come to rest before retrieving it. A release is a required part of a throw, so merely touching the chains or the tray with your putter is not a throw and does not complete the hole.
You can place the disc into the tray (having contact with both the disc, and via the disc, the tray) and let go.

But I wouldn't relish convincing card mates of the legality of releasing the sliding disc in front of the lie.

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  #33  
Old 01-07-2020, 10:30 AM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Is the snow directly assisting the throw? Is it a device? Discuss.
Is skipping off a frozen or thaw pond a device?

How about that tree I hit and ended up under the basket?
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  #34  
Old 01-07-2020, 10:38 AM
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Future_Primitive Future_Primitive is offline
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Originally Posted by Dcinmd View Post
Is skipping off a frozen or thaw pond a device?

How about that tree I hit and ended up under the basket?
Not what Steve was trying to say. Your examples all happen after the disc has been released and the throw is completed. By using the ground and your hand to hold the disc in place during the throw you are being aided by an opposing force, the playing surface. Not sure I believe it qualifies as a "device" but it is aiding in the process.
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  #35  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:45 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
No different than dropping a disc into a basket to hole out. If you set it in the cage, then let go, it's considered a legal throw and is holed out.
You won the debate with this paragraph.

Yes, it's true that .001 seconds before he released the disc he had a supporting point in front of the lie. However at the instant the disc was released, he removed the supporting point.

Mathematically, it's like calculating the limit from different directions.
The limit of the point of contact as time approaches the time of release from the direction of the past is that contact occurs at the point of release
The limit of the point of contact as time approaches the time of release from the direction of the future is that contact has been released at the point of release
The point of contact at the actual time of release is undefined, but we're nice so we rule the release to be fine.

Same thing as the ground causing a fumble in football. Was he down or did he fumble? It happened simultaneously, and the answer is different whether you run the clock forward or backward. But the rule is that the ground can't cause the fumble, so that's that.
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  #36  
Old 01-08-2020, 11:29 AM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Totally agree with this, and have argued for it at length on FB. (Not that arguing at length is hard on FB.)
...

Quote of the Decade!

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  #37  
Old 01-08-2020, 12:45 PM
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cydisc cydisc is offline
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I'll allow it.

Next!

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  #38  
Old 01-08-2020, 01:09 PM
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hiflyer hiflyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
...
Mathematically, it's like calculating the limit from different directions.
The limit of the point of contact as time approaches the time of release from the direction of the past is that contact occurs at the point of release
The limit of the point of contact as time approaches the time of release from the direction of the future is that contact has been released at the point of release
The point of contact at the actual time of release is undefined, but we're nice so we rule the release to be fine...
Does this forum support Mathematica? Id like to see your equations :-P
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  #39  
Old 01-08-2020, 01:50 PM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
Not what Steve was trying to say. Your examples all happen after the disc has been released and the throw is completed. By using the ground and your hand to hold the disc in place during the throw you are being aided by an opposing force, the playing surface. Not sure I believe it qualifies as a "device" but it is aiding in the process.
1. He didn't say ground he stated snow. The snow could be 24" or 2" above the ground. Snow can be soft and powdery or hard as a rock.
2. It is not a given that I have released the disc before the contract with other surfaces or other elements on the course. Who here has not hit a tree before releasing their disc?

If I am throwing a forehand roller from a knee must there be an inch gap between the disc and the ground upon the release for the throw to be legal?
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  #40  
Old 01-08-2020, 02:43 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcinmd View Post
1. He didn't say ground he stated snow. ...
I don't think it matters whether it is ground, snow, pavement, or decking. For a similar example, there is that one hole where the top of the tray is even with the wood decking. Is it using an illegal device to set the disc on the boards and slide it in? (Are the boards a device?)
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