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Old 01-03-2020, 10:46 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Default Marking violation?

Player unintentionally moves their mini two inches in their pre-throw routine. They don't notice and they go on to make their throw. At the point of release, all of their supporting points are where they are 'supposed' to be, had the marker been in the correct position. What's the call?
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:09 AM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Player unintentionally moves their mini two inches in their pre-throw routine. They don't notice and they go on to make their throw. At the point of release, all of their supporting points are where they are 'supposed' to be, had the marker been in the correct position. What's the call?
If the mini was moved, left, right or back 2 inches, then the player's supporting point should still be within the official 20x30 lie per your specified conditions. If the mini was moved straight forward up to 2 inches or forward left or right that amount, then it's possible the player might foot fault forward beyond the original 20x30 area. Of course, the player making this call would have to have seen the marker get moved and would be able to know or estimate the amount of movement and be willing to make a fault call.

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Old 01-03-2020, 11:17 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Player unintentionally moves their mini two inches in their pre-throw routine. They don't notice and they go on to make their throw. At the point of release, all of their supporting points are where they are 'supposed' to be, had the marker been in the correct position. What's the call?
At most it's a marking violation and a warning for the first offense.

The only question of whether it might be more severe than that is dependent on which direction the marker was moved. If it was left/right/back, odds are pretty damn good that the player is still 100% legal for where the marker was supposed to be. If it got moved forward two inches, then there's a chance the player was an inch too far forward. I'd probably still leave it at a marking violation/warning if anything at all, especially if it was unintentional and the thrower was unaware of the marker being moved.

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Old 01-03-2020, 07:04 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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When the marker moves, the lie moves with it. 802.05 D. "[T]he lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc."

Whether the marker was moved legally or not.
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:24 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
When the marker moves, the lie moves with it. 802.05 D. "[T]he lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc."

Whether the marker was moved legally or not.
Is a marker in the wrong spot really a marker or just a stray piece of plastic at that point?

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Old 01-04-2020, 07:43 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Also- the rule you cite is inherently flawed as it defines the lie based on a "marker disc" which is not even required to be used. This also continues into the stance rule where stance is defined based upon the position of a marker disc but not at all in relation to the previously thrown disc.

IMO if the player moves the marker disc such that they are no longer in compliance with the definition of the lie which should be based on the position of the previously thrown disc and then throws from the incorrect spot they should be subject to the foot fault penalty. All the half-assed verbiage is probably a remnant from a rewrite when they switched to allow players to not use a marker and needs to be fixed.

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Old 01-04-2020, 09:15 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Also- the rule you cite is inherently flawed as it defines the lie based on a "marker disc" which is not even required to be used. This also continues into the stance rule where stance is defined based upon the position of a marker disc but not at all in relation to the previously thrown disc.

IMO if the player moves the marker disc such that they are no longer in compliance with the definition of the lie which should be based on the position of the previously thrown disc and then throws from the incorrect spot they should be subject to the foot fault penalty. All the half-assed verbiage is probably a remnant from a rewrite when they switched to allow players to not use a marker and needs to be fixed.
The previously thrown disc IS the marker disc unless the lie is marked with a mini.

Quote:
802.06
A. The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.
Each reference to a mini in the rules specifically says mini marker disc, so when the rule references the marker disc it applies to whichever is being used to mark the current lie, not just a mini.

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Old 01-04-2020, 10:03 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
IMO if the player moves the marker disc such that they are no longer in compliance with the definition of the lie which should be based on the position of the previously thrown disc and then throws from the incorrect spot they should be subject to the foot fault penalty.
That's good input for discussing possible improvements to the rules.

But for now, the violation is a marking violation.

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Old 01-05-2020, 01:53 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Also- the rule you cite is inherently flawed as it defines the lie based on a "marker disc" which is not even required to be used.
The 'marker disc' being either the thrown disc or the mini is laid out kinda in two parts.

Quote:
802.05 Lie
D....The marker disc, or marker, is the disc used to mark the lie according to 802.06.
And then

Quote:
802.06 Marking the Lie
A. The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.

B. Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play.
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Old 01-05-2020, 04:45 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
When the marker moves, the lie moves with it. 802.05 D. "[T]he lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc."

Whether the marker was moved legally or not.
Interesting. But I think the rules may be inconsistent on this.

Quote:
805.01 Establishing a Position
A. A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.
The word 'position' is italicised in the rulebook, and it is my understanding that that means the word is being defined as a technical term that is used throughout the rulebook solely with that specific definition. So this rule states that the position is fixed by where the thrown disc come rest.

If we use the thrown disc to mark the lie.
Quote:
802.06 Marking the Lie
A. The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.
To my mind, the use of 'position' here should be read as the defined term so it references where the thrown disc came to rest, and is not being used in the general sense of where the disc is, or where it subsequently ended up if accidentally nudged. IE this sentence is saying 'the position that was previously established by the thrown disc marks the lie'. So it is immaterial if the thrown disc is subsequently moved - the position is fixed and the lie is defined relative to the position not the disc.

But the next clause doesn't use the term 'position', it just references the thrown disc.
Quote:
802.06 Marking the Lie
B. Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play...
802.05.D (that you quoted Steve) and 802.06.A don't appear to be consistent.
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