#11  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:07 PM
zenbot's Avatar
zenbot zenbot is offline
*Super Moderator*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ventura, California
Years Playing: 13.7
Courses Played: 31
Posts: 11,129
Niced 391 Times in 145 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?
I think where it gets fuzzy for me is that the disc is in contact with the playing surface upon release. So if you continue to propel the disc past your lie, you could argue that you have a supporting point beyond the mark.
Sponsored Links

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:22 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,974 Times in 1,638 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
I am guessing due the thin line between his pushing hand also being a supporting point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbot View Post
I think where it gets fuzzy for me is that the disc is in contact with the playing surface upon release. So if you continue to propel the disc past your lie, you could argue that you have a supporting point beyond the mark.
The location of supporting points is only relevant at the moment of release (assuming we're talking outside the 10-meter circle). By definition, the moment of release is when the hand is no longer contacting the disc. If one's hand is not contacting the disc at moment of release, it isn't contacting the playing surface via the transitive principle either. Any contact between the hand, the disc, and the ground prior to the moment of release is inconsequential and irrelevant.

No different than dropping a disc into a basket to hole out. If you set it in the cage, then let go, it's considered a legal throw and is holed out.

Niced: (3)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:32 PM
Future_Primitive's Avatar
Future_Primitive Future_Primitive is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Years Playing: 7.8
Courses Played: 131
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,638
Niced 826 Times in 372 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The location of supporting points is only relevant at the moment of release (assuming we're talking outside the 10-meter circle). By definition, the moment of release is when the hand is no longer contacting the disc. If one's hand is not contacting the disc at moment of release, it isn't contacting the playing surface via the transitive principle either. Any contact between the hand, the disc, and the ground prior to the moment of release is inconsequential and irrelevant.

No different than dropping a disc into a basket to hole out. If you set it in the cage, then let go, it's considered a legal throw and is holed out.
Zen and I are discussing the point of release (possibly) being after his hand has pushed the disc past the mini and is still in contact with his disc/ground. Your post isnt addressing this scenario directly, IMO, although I am with you on your post being correct.

To be clear, what happens if he pushes the disc 6" past his mini? He doesnt release the pressed down disc until after he has pushed it past his mini/lie. This is the fuzzy part of the scenario IMO as Zen pointed out, its still in contact with the playing surface after he has pushed it past his lie. So its not like dropping a disc into to hole out as that disc is in the air and your feet are behind your lie. His hand is being supported by the ground as he pushes the disc down while sliding it forward. Right?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:40 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,974 Times in 1,638 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
Zen and I are discussing the point of release (possibly) being after his hand has pushed the disc past the mini and is still in contact with his disc/ground. Your post isnt addressing this scenario directly, IMO, although I am with you on your post being correct.

To be clear, what happens if he pushes the disc 6" past his mini? He doesnt release the pressed down disc until after he has pushed it past his mini/lie. This is the fuzzy part of the scenario IMO as Zen pointed out, its still in contact with the playing surface after he has pushed it past his lie. So its not like dropping a disc into to hole out as that disc is in the air and your feet are behind your lie. His hand is being supported by the ground as he pushes the disc down while sliding it forward. Right?
Absolutely my post addresses this directly. The hand pushing the disc past the mini and being in contact with the disc/ground in front of the mini is not illegal because THE DISC HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. Nothing that happens prior to release is relevant to the legality/illegality of the throw. It only matters where the supporting points are AT release.

802.04.B contains the definition of supporting point: "A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support."

If it's before the time of release, it's not a supporting point. It's not anything as pertains to the rules of play.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:47 PM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 31
Courses Played: 702
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,449
Niced 1,896 Times in 841 Posts
Default

Here's the video clip in the Twin Cities Disc Golf group on Facebook. If you're not in that group, you may not be able to see it:
https://www.facebook.com/middlecamp/...8157382613846/

A couple things to note. We don't know if this was just an exhibition or real shot. Second, it wasn't a sanctioned round and marking rules are more liberal in Minnesota in rounds with snow cover. If your disc leaves a ring in the snow when lifted, you can plant in the ring for your next throw without using a marker, especially near the basket. In addition, you can tip your disc forward in the snow so it sits like a tombstone and use it as your mark.

It's likely he flipped the disc upside down and slid with his right hand referencing the "ring in snow" mark and his left hand was placed properly behind the ring mark within the 20x30 lie.

If PDGA sanctioned, this shot could have been done if he had a really thin mini or proper mini diameter sized, flat plastic disc he could press in the snow in front of the disc to mark the lie. Then, flip over the disc and do the same sliding throw with disc gliding over the top of the mini marker. Whether the disc being released while over or past the mini is a bit grey area so flinging it a half inch above the snow might be better form. Of course, in winter rules, it's also a grey area whether the top of the snow is the playing surface or its surface once its compacted or the actual ground below it.

Niced: (2)

Last edited by Cgkdisc; 01-06-2020 at 01:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:52 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,974 Times in 1,638 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
If PDGA sanctioned, this shot could have been done if he had a really thin mini or proper mini diameter sized, flat plastic disc he could press in the snow in front of the disc to mark the lie. Then, flip over the disc and do the same sliding throw with disc gliding over the top of the mini marker.
Assuming that he is actually sliding the disc over the lie/marker, then the slide in the video might require a flat mini or one pressed into the snow, but it should be noted that a shot like this does not have to originate from the lie or pass over the lie/mini to be legal. The player's lie in the video could be in front of his right knee rather than in front of his left hand and the throw would be just as legal.

Last edited by JC17393; 01-06-2020 at 01:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:00 PM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 31
Courses Played: 702
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,449
Niced 1,896 Times in 841 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Assuming that he is actually sliding the disc over the lie/marker, then the slide in the video might require a flat mini or one pressed into the snow, but it should be noted that a shot like this does not have to originate from the lie or pass over the lie/mini to be legal. The player's lie in the video could be in front of his right knee rather than in front of his left hand and the throw would be just as legal.
The grey area seems to be whether it's proper to still be in contact with the disc while it's touching the ground in front of the lie before release. I suppose it could be allowed under the "incidental contact with obstacles/foliage (snow) in front of the lie" provision during the throwing motion. But it feels like the player should be required to release contact with the disc behind the lie if this ever became a formal Q&A decision.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:04 PM
kenjiac's Avatar
kenjiac kenjiac is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colonie NY
Years Playing: 12.7
Courses Played: 109
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,064
Niced 227 Times in 126 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Need a marker disc for a legal lie, yes.

Need to release the disc behind the marker...no. Please cite the rule that requires the disc to be released behind the marker to be a legal throw.

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?
Because once it crosses in front of the lie it could be considered a supporting point in front of the lie and thus not legal. The player never lifted the disc off the ground.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:12 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,974 Times in 1,638 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The grey area seems to be whether it's proper to still be in contact with the disc while it's touching the ground in front of the lie before release. I suppose it could be allowed under the "incidental contact with obstacles/foliage (snow) in front of the lie" provision during the throwing motion. But it feels like the player should be required to release contact with the disc behind the lie if this ever became a formal Q&A decision.
But as I keep saying, it really isn't a grey area. Contact with the playing surface in front of the lie before release of the disc is irrelevant. The best direct comparison is the crane putt you once demonstrated on video. One foot in front of the lie then picked up just before release. That foot in front of the lie isn't a grey area any more than the disc being in contact with the ground and the thrower's hand before it is released.
Reply With Quote
 

  #20  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:13 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 151
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,974 Times in 1,638 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiac View Post
Because once it crosses in front of the lie it could be considered a supporting point in front of the lie and thus not legal. The player never lifted the disc off the ground.
See my prior post. It's not a supporting point UNTIL the disc is released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Absolutely my post addresses this directly. The hand pushing the disc past the mini and being in contact with the disc/ground in front of the mini is not illegal because THE DISC HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. Nothing that happens prior to release is relevant to the legality/illegality of the throw. It only matters where the supporting points are AT release.

802.04.B contains the definition of supporting point: "A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support."

If it's before the time of release, it's not a supporting point. It's not anything as pertains to the rules of play.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Disc Claw by Hive Disc Golf- Disc retriever Aim For The Chains Other Gear 1 07-26-2016 02:08 PM
1 Disc, 2 Disc, Red Disc, Blue Disc: New&Used, Pearly/Gummy & Cheap! GripLock13 The Marketplace 8 03-19-2013 07:06 PM
Disc at rest but then starts sliding... joshmo65 Rules Questions & Discussion 7 02-11-2013 09:53 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.