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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #3481  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blake833 View Post
Just because he has an LSU avatar, please don't think everyone around here thinks par is just based on whatever a designer says it is. Most of us Louisianans do know that's not a great measure.

For example, there's a course in Baton Rouge where every hole over 200' is par 4, 300' a par 5; the course par is 76, but the SSE is only 46, or a 30 under. The designer may say an open 320' hole is a par 5, but unless you are just starting to play this game, you can probably set a more realistic expectation for yourself.
Those are the original Steady Ed par values for rec courses built up to around 1990 and still valid today for many older and junior beginners. My girlfriend has been playing for a few years now and still doesn't throw past 150 off the tee. She would be challenged to shoot par on a course following those original values.
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  #3482  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:46 PM
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One of my local courses (Earlewood) still has those Steady Ed pars on the signs. SSA about 46, par 68.
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  #3483  
Old 01-21-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
As you might expect, Phil’s so-called “12 under” bothered me. I’d say he got a 60 on a par 69 course, not on a par 72 course. Explain to me why these holes should be par 5.
These look like holes that were designed to be a par 5 but ended up being too easy, and ended up tweener holes.

With the exception of the red, which I agree is clearly a par 4, I don't know that it would be much easier to explain why it should be a par 4, rather than a 5.
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  #3484  
Old 01-21-2019, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake833 View Post
Just because he has an LSU avatar, please don't think everyone around here thinks par is just based on whatever a designer says it is. Most of us Louisianans do know that's not a great measure.
The smart ones do. Did you not see that this was about golf?
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  #3485  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:01 AM
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Does anyone not think that designers should be laying out holes with a specific par in mind?

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  #3486  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Does anyone not think that designers should be laying out holes with a specific par in mind?
They certainly should be.

One issue of par is that it must be applied to all holes, good or bad.

One alleviating factor is that it most matters at top-level events, and as the sport grows at the top, standards are raised.

That said, where there is a good designer, certainly he's designing with par in mind---how he expects a hole to be played, and what scores he expects it to produce. Except, perhaps, where he designs a hole where he expects 2s, but is reluctant to label it thus and calls it a "birdie hole" par-3. But if the results show that his expectations were wrong, if he misjudged it originally, or time changes the landscape, disc technology, or top-level skills, perhaps a change is in order. Either a change in the hole itself---not always possible---or a change in the assigned par.
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  #3487  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:01 AM
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And now we are back to the tee box problem. This thread is like groundhog day lol.

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  #3488  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
They certainly should be.
Given this my next question is:
Is the idea that par is not set by the designer but by the TD nonsensical?

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This thread is like groundhog day lol.
You can say that again...and again...and again...
















...and again.

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  #3489  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Given this my next question is:
Is the idea that par is not set by the designer but by the TD nonsensical?
Hmm. I am neither so perhaps this is an ill-considered question, but I'll ask anyway.

If you have a pro tournament at a course designed for top pros (Hawk Hollow, Clark's Run, Idlewild, etc.), I agree it makes sense to go with designer par.

But what if the next weekend a TD holds a tournament for 12 and under players at the same course. Would it make sense for small children to play pro par, or would it make more sense for the TD to assign a more realistic par for the players in that tournament?

(overlooking the question of whether pro courses are the most suitable venue for a children's tournament)

Or what if you have an older course, and over time disc technology improves, trees fall, wooded holes open up, etc. and the course genuinely plays easier. If the designer is no longer involved with the course, would it make sense for the TD/club/etc. to adjust par?

(I am genuinely interested, not trying to be a smarta$$).
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  #3490  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Given this my next question is:
Is the idea that par is not set by the designer but by the TD nonsensical?
Fair point.

Ideally, it's the designer. Ideally, the designer does it right, and nothing ever changes.

The TD becomes the de facto designer with course changes, time changes, putting a tournament on a course with ill-designated pars (or perhaps pars designated for other skill levels), added temp holes, and because the TD has an interest in the missed-hole penalty being as equitable as possible.


There is also a question as to whether "as determined by the designer", or whatever it says (I'm too lazy to quote verbatim), means that the designer is the arbiter of par, which should be set according to the rest of the definition, or whether the designer has absolute authority, regardless of the rest of the definition.
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