Disc Golf Course Review Reach back era is over, long live the whip.
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#111
08-22-2019, 02:38 AM
 sidewinder22 * Ace Member * Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Creeping Creek DGC Years Playing: 13.4 Courses Played: 220 Posts: 15,141 Niced 2,884 Times in 1,762 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tampora From the disc's perspective, it is irrelevant what happened before moment it began moving purely on its own momentum. Ideally, YMS will increase when using a whip-like motion (albeit for a much shorter timespan and hopefully at the moment of release), but the fact that the disc was accelerating up until the moment it was released instead of a constant speed is irrelevant. Consider this analogy: Two bicyclists are racing using the rule that they cannot pedal once the race has began. Both bicyclists cross the starting line at the same instant in a rolling start with speed 40mph. Previous to crossing the starting line, one bicyclist was traveling a constant 40mph, while the other waited to accelerate to 40mph until the last moment before the starting line. Would you assume the person who waited until the last moment to accelerate to have some advantage? I wouldn't.
Imagine how much harder you have to work to reach that speed in much shorter time/distance.
#112
08-22-2019, 10:48 AM
 DiscFifty * Ace Member * Join Date: Sep 2012 Years Playing: 8.7 Courses Played: 19 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 3,342 Niced 977 Times in 576 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sidewinder22 Imagine how much harder you have to work to reach that speed in much shorter time/distance.
I think whoever expends the accumulated energy in the least amount of time will have worked the least.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tampora Ideally, YMS will increase when using a whip-like motion (albeit for a much shorter timespan and hopefully at the moment of release), but the fact that the disc was accelerating up until the moment it was released instead of a constant speed is irrelevant.
If we were robots I would agree, but otherwise energy does effect efficiency and if you save that energy as long as possible before executing something, especially in the twitch muscle category I would think it would perform better. Hence starting slow, exploding during the whip.
#113
08-22-2019, 11:02 AM
 drk_evns Par Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Holland, MI Courses Played: 36 Posts: 239 Niced 130 Times in 86 Posts

"YMS" only happens for a split second. If you attempt to go YMS from the peak fo the backswing, you're NOT going to be going YMS at the hit. If you were able to maintain YMS the entire time it wouldn't matter, but we're human and we don't work that way.

 Niced: (1)
#114
08-22-2019, 01:19 PM
 sidewinder22 * Ace Member * Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Creeping Creek DGC Years Playing: 13.4 Courses Played: 220 Posts: 15,141 Niced 2,884 Times in 1,762 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DiscFifty I think whoever expends the accumulated energy in the least amount of time will have worked the least. If we were robots I would agree, but otherwise energy does effect efficiency and if you save that energy as long as possible before executing something, especially in the twitch muscle category I would think it would perform better. Hence starting slow, exploding during the whip.
If you accelerate fast/hard at the last second, your muscles have to work much harder/be more explosive and the pressure on your grip is insane from the disc's inertia lagging, compared to smoothly accelerating the disc throughout a longer swing, like James Conrad who doesn't have that fast muscle twitch to explode at the last second like Seppo.
#115
08-23-2019, 04:34 PM
 drk_evns Par Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Holland, MI Courses Played: 36 Posts: 239 Niced 130 Times in 86 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sidewinder22 If you accelerate fast/hard at the last second, your muscles have to work much harder/be more explosive and the pressure on your grip is insane from the disc's inertia lagging, compared to smoothly accelerating the disc throughout a longer swing, like James Conrad who doesn't have that fast muscle twitch to explode at the last second like Seppo.
I think he's talking max speed from reach back to hit, which isn't really possible.

A smooth acceleration is definitely the right answer.
#116
08-27-2019, 03:06 AM
 TheBeardedFatGuy Birdie Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Tri-Cities, WA Years Playing: 5.4 Courses Played: 2 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 495 Niced 6 Times in 5 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sidewinder22 More redirection creates more acceleration. You won't find any video of people starting a whip from a static coil. You can't manufacture a static coil nearly as well a dynamic coil. When you snap someone with a towel you hold the back end straight to whip it harder.
Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.
#117
08-27-2019, 03:15 PM
 Putt for D'oh Double Eagle Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Years Playing: 4.6 Courses Played: 24 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 1,176 Niced 521 Times in 298 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheBeardedFatGuy Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.
I don't think I understand what your interpretations are, of what SW has said in this thread.
#118
08-27-2019, 09:23 PM
 UhhNegative Eagle Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Courses Played: 48 Posts: 691 Niced 230 Times in 175 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheBeardedFatGuy Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.
No, it's exactly a 'dynamic coil'. Towel goes from straight, to coiled, to straight momentarily, back to coiled in the other direction.

A "static coil" would be having the towel already curled and then quickly pulling one end.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't make sense. Of course throwing a disc isn't exactly like whipping a towel, its the idea of redirection that is important.

#119
08-27-2019, 09:35 PM
 sidewinder22 * Ace Member * Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Creeping Creek DGC Years Playing: 13.4 Courses Played: 220 Posts: 15,141 Niced 2,884 Times in 1,762 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheBeardedFatGuy Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.
No analogy is perfect, but they help convey concepts to the uninitiated. The towel is not coiled when pulled taut straight. The towel is actually stretched out rather than coiled. The straight towel goes into a dynamic coil. A bull whip can be incredibly accurate.

The human body doesn't create or transfer power efficiently in a perfect plane, especially when you are moving around dynamically in a throw. It's like how gym machines are bad for the joints compared to free weights.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dave Dunipace The path of the disc from pull back to release does not need to be in a straight line. The path that the disc takes from the end of the reach back to the point of separation does not affect the line of flight except at the point the flight begins. This means that it doesn't matter what arc or path the disc takes before the hit (snap). The path the disc takes after launch is determined at the hit, not before. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/r...esecrets.shtml

Note how how he says you tell when I'm not going use the whip when it's coiled up. And how accurate the whip is:

#120
09-01-2019, 02:01 AM
 TheBeardedFatGuy Birdie Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Tri-Cities, WA Years Playing: 5.4 Courses Played: 2 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 495 Niced 6 Times in 5 Posts

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got that improved my drive was from one of Shusterick's videos he made eons ago where he advised not just reaching back, but making sure your non-throwing shoulder mirrors the reach back shoulder by moving fully toward the basket. When he pointed this out I had an 'aha' moment where I connected the reach back more with the winding of a spring and less with lengthening the runway to build up more speed for the snap (which has often been expressed as the purpose of a full reach back). This ties in with Dunipace's video in that I think the important takeaway isn't 'you don't need to reach back fully', but more 'you need to wind up your springs better'.