#411  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:46 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
We regulate body type right now. We do it with female protected divisions. One body type is allowed in that division and one isn't.
Do you know what until 2015, that was based on? Primary external characteristics. Ie. penis vs vulva/vagina. No more no less.
A 6ft hyperandrogenous woman (think Caster Semenya now, or Foekje Dillema in the past) was explicitly allowed to compete in gender-protected divisions because of having a vagina/vulva. Regardless of physical build, muscle mass, limb length, bone structure, pelvic bone angle, lung capacity.

Sports are inherently and explicitly a celebration of physical excellence. That's why you rarely see a basketball player below 6'0, why horse racing jockeys are rarely above 5'5", why road cyclists have either strong muscular builds (to win mass sprints) or are compact and lean (to win mountain stages), etc...

Because of better understanding of gender and of what constitutes advantage and what doesn't, testosterone is added to the list of criteria.
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Last edited by gingerandhoney; 08-14-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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  #412  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:58 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Congratulations on handling all of this with grace and class- I have been amazed by your demeanor throughout.

The above has me troubled (on an insignificant disc golf-y basis) however... do you mean there should be no penalty or that there should be a more severe penalty? Or that players should not be required to total the scores at all ala traditional golf?

...and to continue the thread drift into Laura Nagtegaal AMA territory- who have been some of your favorite bands to work with?
Thank you so much for saying that.


I believe the penalty should remain, but, for the same reason Island holes are subject to scrutiny before allowing them, because they can unfairly affect round ratings, I am an advocate for keeping the penalty (and other penalties, ideally) intact, but adding them to total score outside of round scores.
Ie, if I were to score 60,60,60, but made a totalling error in round 2, I would not get a 60,62,60 ( = 182).
I would get 60,60,60,+2 ( = 182)
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  #413  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:00 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post

I believe the penalty should remain, but, for the same reason Island holes are subject to scrutiny before allowing them, because they can unfairly affect round ratings, I am an advocate for keeping the penalty (and other penalties, ideally) intact, but adding them to total score outside of round scores.
Ie, if I were to score 60,60,60, but made a totalling error in round 2, I would not get a 60,62,60 ( = 182).
I would get 60,60,60,+2 ( = 182)
Makes perfect sense... I have wondered about that myself at times through the years.
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  #414  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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Nova P Nova P is offline
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I will also say that I just had a moment of pause and reconsideration when a guy named "BigDickHyzer" likes one of my posts on this topic.
I have heard second-hand from a friend who I respect very much the account of someone who was formerly anti-transgender, who looked around at who her allies were in the discussion and particularly how they were behaving and the language they were using, and decided that she'd rather not keep their company and moved over to the side of acceptance.
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  #415  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:04 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Educate people for as long as you want to, but if you ever get tired of it, don't be ashamed to take some time away and just live your life in peace. You've earned it and deserve it.
So I wanted to second the above. And to thank you ginger for your desire to explain, inform, educate. And the grace, patience and composure with which you have done so. Everybody benefits from discussions like these, and your and other transgender people's contributions to them.

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  #416  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
When you start bleeding over into things like the long and lanky body type, that's not 100% dictated by gender. There are women taller with longer arms than me. If one of them became a highly rated disc golfer, there isn't anything you can do about that; they would just be "blessed" with the right sort of frame for disc golf. If somebody is blessed with the right frame for disc golf, they have that advantage. If they are born male and transition to female, they will carry that advantage with them.

A lot of this is all dictated about what is "fair" for the women who were born female. Wouldn't it be unfair to a transgendered female to say "Sorry, you are too long and lanky. If you were short with stumpy arms you could play" when there is no equivalent disqualification for the women who were born female with a long and lanky body type? That's a question we also have to consider. If we are worried about what is fair, it has to go both ways.
These things are true of muscle mass as well. There are stronger guys and weaker guys. There are stronger women and weaker women. There are some women that are stronger than guys. And yet we still have gender protected divisions because on the average men have a greater athletic advantage over women.

I completely agree that it is unfair both ways to transgender women. That sucks. I don't know what is right. It is a complicated issue. I just want all arguments considered, which is why I jumped into this.

I will give all of you another argument.
Transgender females should be allowed to play in female protected divisions because the PDGA should foster a spirit of inclusivity. We should respect transgender females by accepting them as females in our sport.
That is another argument. That is a very GOOD argument in my opinion. But it is only one argument. One part of a complicated discussion that has very many parts and valid arguments. I just really want everything to be considered and I didn't see that happening. As I said before, my mind is not made up on this issue.

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  #417  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:58 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
...and to continue the thread drift into Laura Nagtegaal AMA territory- who have been some of your favorite bands to work with?
Porcupine Tree, Samael, Anathema, Carcass, Theatre of Tragedy

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  #418  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:09 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
These things are true of muscle mass as well. There are stronger guys and weaker guys. There are stronger women and weaker women. There are some women that are stronger than guys. And yet we still have gender protected divisions because on the average men have a greater athletic advantage over women.

I completely agree that it is unfair both ways to transgender women. That sucks. I don't know what is right. It is a complicated issue. I just want all arguments considered, which is why I jumped into this.

I will give all of you another argument.
Transgender females should be allowed to play in female protected divisions because the PDGA should foster a spirit of inclusivity. We should respect transgender females by accepting them as females in our sport.
That is another argument. That is a very GOOD argument in my opinion. But it is only one argument. One part of a complicated discussion that has very many parts and valid arguments. I just really want everything to be considered and I didn't see that happening. As I said before, my mind is not made up on this issue.
The point about a spirit of inclusiveness is a good one and goes back to another thread we recently had about PDGA divisions. The basic issue for sports like disc golf is that for most disc golfers the actual sport and competition is only part of the disc golf picture, there is a huge social aspect to PDGA gatherings. Being the administrator of competition and the administrator of a social event are vastly different things with vastly different priorities.

Considering us as members of a community, you want disc golf to be inclusive and you want us to support the members of our community that go through the difficult process of transitioning. You don't want people to lose friends and their recreational outlet through that process. At least I don't. So from that perspective it's easy.

The questions surrounding competition are harder. Trying to figure out what is "fair" when obviously certain people already have physical advantages over others so the playing field was never fair in the first place gets to be a convoluted mess. That's probably why we keep tripping over the details from the competitive aspect, while we have barely touched the social aspect. The social aspect is largely a no-brainer.

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  #419  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:25 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
These things are true of muscle mass as well. There are stronger guys and weaker guys. There are stronger women and weaker women. There are some women that are stronger than guys. And yet we still have gender protected divisions because on the average men have a greater athletic advantage over women.

I completely agree that it is unfair both ways to transgender women. That sucks. I don't know what is right. It is a complicated issue. I just want all arguments considered, which is why I jumped into this.

I will give all of you another argument.
Transgender females should be allowed to play in female protected divisions because the PDGA should foster a spirit of inclusivity. We should respect transgender females by accepting them as females in our sport.
That is another argument. That is a very GOOD argument in my opinion. But it is only one argument. One part of a complicated discussion that has very many parts and valid arguments. I just really want everything to be considered and I didn't see that happening. As I said before, my mind is not made up on this issue.
It's definitely a complicated issue.
From the rules side of things, IOC says it's OK, it should be OK.
For inclusivity sake, it should be OK.
For competitive reasons, you could argue against including them. But hard proof is unavailable. But it deserves solid discourse. That discussion is not yours or mine to have.
And then there is the fear-influenced faction. That is the most vocal.
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  #420  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:34 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
The point about a spirit of inclusiveness is a good one and goes back to another thread we recently had about PDGA divisions. The basic issue for sports like disc golf is that for most disc golfers the actual sport and competition is only part of the disc golf picture, there is a huge social aspect to PDGA gatherings. Being the administrator of competition and the administrator of a social event are vastly different things with vastly different priorities.

Considering us as members of a community, you want disc golf to be inclusive and you want us to support the members of our community that go through the difficult process of transitioning. You don't want people to lose friends and their recreational outlet through that process. At least I don't. So from that perspective it's easy.

The questions surrounding competition are harder. Trying to figure out what is "fair" when obviously certain people already have physical advantages over others so the playing field was never fair in the first place gets to be a convoluted mess. That's probably why we keep tripping over the details from the competitive aspect, while we have barely touched the social aspect. The social aspect is largely a no-brainer.
!!!!!!

The social aspect, finally being able to play on the same card with women, that was suuuuch a wonderful feeling. It definitely helped lift my game, because I finally felt accepted, truly.
The love, the moral support for each other, the true happiness for each other.

In the interim, between starting transition and being approved for gender-protected divisions (Apr '17 - Apr' 19) I dutifully played in MPO in my home country (only mpo, fpo, ma1 offered) or MP40 (EuroTour). And it never sat right. I couldn't care less about competitiveness, but I really felt like I was an alien who had just landed on earth.
That feeling is totally gone now I am allowed to play in gender-protected divisions.
And I still don't care at all about competitiveness, in case anyone wondered.

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