#611  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:48 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
Obviously your competing against other players, but indirectly by comparing your scorers versus a course. It's not as if you're playing goal keeper and trying to putt their putts out of the air. Theoretically (obviously there are some nuances), your round rating should be a very good approximation of your skill level regardless of your competition, with the same metric being used for players in every class or division. In a sport like tennis or volleyball where your competing directing against other players, it would be very hard to come up with any tangible measurement of skill change pre- and post- transition.
Funny you mention tennis; it is possibly the one sport with the easiest measuring tool available. A player's serve is being measured in km/h or mp/h, and I am confident that as transition progresses, that serve speed will drop.
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  #612  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:57 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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I don't think anyone is seriously concerned that men are going to transition for the purpose of winning in a sport. The concern is that men who do transition may have an advantage over cis women, and that it's unfair for them to have to compete against non cis women.
I have had to debunk exactly that allegation close to a hundred times across all the topics I found online; men who couldn't cut it in their own division simply transitioning in order to beat women. Even if it's only a troll posting it, it IS poisoning the well. And I am pretty confident it was a relatively low amount of trolls, and a fairly high amount of actually angry and fearful people (mostly men, ironically) posting those posts.

BTW: I think the MAY with regards to advantage you (narrow sense) refer to, is proving the exact opposite of the point you (broader sense) are trying to make.
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  #613  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:10 PM
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Hampstead Hampstead is offline
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I'm just a dumb dude. I do alright with the competitive disc golf, but pro tour isn't my future. I really can't fathom undergoing a sex change just so I can win a few lower tier events. Maybe there are guys so desperate for disc golf dominance they'd prefer expensive surgery over fieldwork, but I have my doubts about it.

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  #614  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:37 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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You're not a dumb dude
Anyway, assuming for a second that it would actually be POSSIBLE to transition simply for an athletic edge over women, it indeed seems like a terrible detour with way too many negative side effects that are going to have a life-long effect (possibly life-threatening).
Field work, gym, mental game practice, putting routine... it all leads to better results, quicker. Cheaper.
I don't know US data on gender confirming surgery costs, but $30k seems to be a low estimate. And with insurance coverage in the USA being what it is (and insurance certainly not covering that surgery without the much-needed green light after psych eval, and only POSSIBLY covering it after green light), that may seem like way too much of a burden.

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Old 09-04-2019, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
Theoretically (obviously there are some nuances), your round rating should be a very good approximation of your skill level regardless of your competition...
Trust me.. I WISH ratings were based on how well you played the course, but it's not. It's directly related to how well you did against the other players on that day. It's pretty simple to witness. Consider the scenario where someone shoots the same score as someone else, except his rating was lower? It's because they were in seperate divisions and the lower rated round had a pool of lower rated players.
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I don't think anyone is seriously concerned that men are going to transition for the purpose of winning in a sport. The concern is that men who do transition may have an advantage over cis women, and that it's unfair for them to have to compete against non cis women.
Agreed.
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:10 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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It all works out, except for the last 11 words. That's not necessarily so. The same score with the same average rated players pool in a certain pool, on the same day on a different layout (long vs short tees), could still result in a lower round rating.
Enter SSA.
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  #618  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:57 AM
Binky Yutz Binky Yutz is offline
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I have followed this thread from the beginning, and I usually stay out of these types of threads....

What I was wondering was (as it pertains to disc golf only): Are there any persons naturally born female, that have transitioned to male, and now play in the MPO, MA40, or any male division....AND are there then inherent disadvantages, due to all the same reasons given for being an advantage in the male to female transitioning person???

Does that even make sense?? In other words, is the OPPOSITE true also, for the same reasons.

Would the same arguments be made?
Would MPO players have a problem with that ?
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Old 09-04-2019, 09:19 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Binky Yutz View Post
I have followed this thread from the beginning, and I usually stay out of these types of threads....

What I was wondering was (as it pertains to disc golf only): Are there any persons naturally born female, that have transitioned to male, and now play in the MPO, MA40, or any male division....AND are there then inherent disadvantages, due to all the same reasons given for being an advantage in the male to female transitioning person???

Does that even make sense?? In other words, is the OPPOSITE true also, for the same reasons.

Would the same arguments be made?
Would MPO players have a problem with that ?
It's not equivalent. The M-- divisions aren't protected. (If a man could transition into an older man, and play in an age-protected division despite his birthdate, it would be slightly similar).

The protected divisions exist because biological realities reduce the average skill level of those groups, as well as the ceiling. This applies to both age- and gender-protected divisions, though the ceiling might at 40+ may be disputable.

The PDGA has adopted the position of the IOC and many other sports---that the effects of the male-to-female transition are essentially the same as the biological limitations of those born female. Not exactly the same, but enough, to make eligibility for a protected division reasonable.

None of this would apply to an unprotected division.
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  #620  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:46 AM
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Arisugawa Arisugawa is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Performance-enhancing interventions (through medication or surgery) are strictly regulated and monitored and sacntioned by the WADA and other anti-doping authorities.

Transgender people, through their innate wish to finally have a body that matches what they are on the inside are doing exactly the opposite. They are undergoing performance-reducing interventions, by either suppressing the creation of testosterone via medication, or removing the testes altogether.
Slight correction.

You are referring to transgender women here, not all transgender people, correct? Transgender men would be undergoing testosterone therapy and whatever the equivalent surgeries are for them, to gain a performance-enhancing intervention. Performance-leveling may be a better word for it.

Regardless, while I know your intent was to address your side of the situation, it doesn't apply equally across both halves of the spectrum.

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