#51  
Old 06-05-2019, 12:50 AM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is online now
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Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
buy or sell: there will be a significant innovation or revolution in disc technology in the next five years that markedly impacts the pro game (something more significant than blizzard, which, if anything, affect the am side, and gyro, which has had modest, at best, impact)
I think it is something that should be out if legal like a new disc that is a putter with a fairway to slow speed driver width rim and go from there like a full putter nose and height from top to wing but with wing being wider then 98% of putters on the market.
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  #52  
Old 06-05-2019, 12:57 AM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is online now
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Buy or Sell: Make a Par 2 an actual thing for some really mega short holes?

Some non Top level Amateur/Pro level courses could benfit from this a these courses often have a single hole the really short one people are getting a par 2 as you see even raw beginners that have not even really thrown a toy disc getting a 2 on this hole.
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  #53  
Old 06-05-2019, 11:35 AM
Central Scrutinizer Central Scrutinizer is offline
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Buy or Sell: Is Disc Golf doing enough to entice youth play for optimal future sport growth? Why aren't there more discs accessible to youth on the shelves of the major retail chains like Dick's where most of the not-yet-Discing public walks by? Look at the Disc selection at these places, then compare to the other sports in the same store. They've got equipment galore catering to young children so that there will be adult enthusiasts for their sports in 15 years.

We're always talking about growing the sport. I love playing more courses, so I'm definitely in favor of growth.

Yes, there are starter packs. The main problem I have with them is how you can't see their weights. A 148 DX Leopard is fine for youth, but not a heavier one made for adults up in the 170 range. I don't believe you can see the weights of the Aviar, Shark and Leopard inside the packaging.

I'd love to see a couple of slots of, let's say, Starlite Sidewinders and 150 Stingrays with a big "Great for Kids" insignia. My 9-year-old can throw his 135 Starlite Valkyrie BEAUTIFULLY. The other day I paced off 73 paces on a line-drive no-wobble flex drive he threw. It was awesome. (about 200 feet). He loves to play now that he has Discs he can control. The bug has bitten him! It wouldn't be possible without the super duper light stuff I've sought out specifically for him and that's only possible because I'm an enthusiast.

I bought it (plus a super grippy 155 M4 and a 160 Stratus) from the specialty Disc Golf section at a head shop (Otter's Oasis in Kalamazoo) specifically set up by local DG guru Larry LaBond. We're unbelievably blessed to have him here, but there isn't always a Larry LaBond in every town and I don't like bringing my child into a head shop. The general public not yet involved with the sport doesn't usually know about clubs and leagues where the better Discs are for sale. They don't know about better Discs for their kids either, just what they see at Dick's and (in our regional case) the large grocer chain called Meijer.

I also found a 143 DX Stingray at my buddy's pro shop at Wild Haven, again, a specialty destination most likely to be visited by enthusiasts. There ought to be an entire row of 143 DX Stingrays at every major retailer in my opinion. I snatched it up for my son's upcoming birthday and can't wait to see if he can hold a turnover line with it...

A neighbor had picked up his son a starter pack at Meijer by the time we talked about it and they were lucky it was all 150 stuff, but they also got him a max-weight Viking and a freaking Pro Shryke. What about the poor soul who buys this Shryke (or the touted Boss frequently on the shelves) as their first and only? I wonder if I would have stayed with the sport in 1989 if my first Disc was a max-weight speed 13 driver? (My first was a Stingray. I used it and a Wham-O Frisbee for the first few rounds).

The other side of the coin is that we've had pretty consistent growth for decades without catering much to youth and maybe it's not as necessary as I think it is? I don't know. There's a butt-ton of youth softball, baseball, soccer, basketball and football stuff at Dick's and it's smart for them. Why wouldn't it be for us?

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  #54  
Old 06-06-2019, 07:24 PM
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JTacoma03 JTacoma03 is offline
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Oops! Meant to post this before now! Thanks for submitting, all of you kicked ass with the topics!

The Upshot: Buy or Sell, Beaver State Fling

As always, shout out to Pound Disc Golf for sponsoring the show (and for hooking us up with some BEAUTIFUL bags)!

I'm quite sure we'll do this segment (or others like it) again before too long, so stay tuned!

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  #55  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:56 AM
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esdubya esdubya is offline
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Good stuff, I particularly liked the discussion around the AM payout structure. It's a broken system that is primarily benefiting the manufacturers. Want to run a PDGA event? Get ready to buy buy buy some plastic to meet the minimum payout rule. The experience provided by actually playing the tournament is perceived to be zero, yes, there is definitely something wrong there. Love the pod, keep up the great work guys.

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  #56  
Old 06-07-2019, 10:17 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Originally Posted by esdubya View Post
Good stuff, I particularly liked the discussion around the AM payout structure. It's a broken system that is primarily benefiting the manufacturers. Want to run a PDGA event? Get ready to buy buy buy some plastic to meet the minimum payout rule. The experience provided by actually playing the tournament is perceived to be zero, yes, there is definitely something wrong there. Love the pod, keep up the great work guys.
Some incorrect information here.

There is no requirement for payout in amateur events. None. Am Majors have no payout. Read about that at:

https://www.pdga.com/td/true-amateur

There is no requirement, if you choose to have a payout to payout in discs. None. The only requirement is a percentage of entry fee in value. Yes, it would be dumb to pay someone out in, I don't know gym shorts, but you could technically do it. A much more reasonable and likely payout scenario that I've seen work could be gift cards to a Play It Again Sports, products from a major sponsor(s) of an event, etc.

I 100% agree with you that the perceived value of an event is zero and that's a problem, but it's worth nothing these other things.
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  #57  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:09 AM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
Some incorrect information here.

There is no requirement for payout in amateur events. None. Am Majors have no payout. Read about that at:

https://www.pdga.com/td/true-amateur

There is no requirement, if you choose to have a payout to payout in discs. None. The only requirement is a percentage of entry fee in value. Yes, it would be dumb to pay someone out in, I don't know gym shorts, but you could technically do it. A much more reasonable and likely payout scenario that I've seen work could be gift cards to a Play It Again Sports, products from a major sponsor(s) of an event, etc.

I 100% agree with you that the perceived value of an event is zero and that's a problem, but it's worth nothing these other things.
-
Payouts, players pack - makes no difference. The fundamental thing we're getting at is this:

"Tournament Directors should be able to cover all tournament expenses, and make a profit as well, through careful purchasing of tournament amenities, trophies, and player packs."

Which forces the TD to make a living as a purchaser/re-seller. So, I need to pay the TD $60 (and deal with non-competition things I didn't choose) for the TD to have maybe $30. Why can't I choose to pay the TD $40?

Don't TDs provide valuable service?

Or is the only value the TD brings to the table is as a wholesale purchaser, with the tournament's only purpose being a way to coerce players into buying stuff they don't want?

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Old 06-07-2019, 11:26 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Payouts, players pack - makes no difference. The fundamental thing we're getting at is this:

"Tournament Directors should be able to cover all tournament expenses, and make a profit as well, through careful purchasing of tournament amenities, trophies, and player packs."

Which forces the TD to make a living as a purchaser/re-seller. So, I need to pay the TD $60 (and deal with non-competition things I didn't choose) for the TD to have maybe $30. Why can't I choose to pay the TD $40?

Don't TDs provide valuable service?

Or is the only value the TD brings to the table is as a wholesale purchaser, with the tournament's only purpose being a way to coerce players into buying stuff they don't want?
There is nothing that says you have to charge $60.

I've seen PDGA events charge $4 (PDGA per player fee and the other $2 went to tournament expenses such as sanctioning) and there was no payout because the net entry was $0.

The issue isn't the model, it's the lack of understanding of it.
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:47 PM
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esdubya esdubya is offline
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MTL I think you are missing the point.

The issue is: (for example) if the TD wants to charge say $40, and give out $20 retail back to the player in merch, but provide an amazing experience for the player, he is in violation of the PDGA tour standards. In this example the player would be getting value back of $20 in merch, and then $20 for the experience of playing in the event. This is really common in Ultimate, Triathlons, and Mountain Bike events where the participants are paying for the experience, not JUST for similar value back in material objects. The PDGA tour standards don't allow for this to happen unless I'm misunderstanding things.

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  #60  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdubya View Post
MTL I think you are missing the point.

The issue is: (for example) if the TD wants to charge say $40, and give out $20 retail back to the player in merch, but provide an amazing experience for the player, he is in violation of the PDGA tour standards. In this example the player would be getting value back of $20 in merch, and then $20 for the experience of playing in the event. This is really common in Ultimate, Triathlons, and Mountain Bike events where the participants are paying for the experience, not JUST for similar value back in material objects. The PDGA tour standards don't allow for this to happen unless I'm misunderstanding things.
You're like 90% there, if I may:

Technically your hypothetical is fine, because as a TD I get to assign the value of the players pack. I don't know if the rule is written exactly like that, but unless you claim falsely that your players pack is worth $1000, nobody is going to check you on the value you assign.

So, I could say "You get a players pack worth $30, and the payout is $20" and that would even qualify for an A-tier because you're allowed to deduct the players pack value from the entry fee (they say "net entry" not "gross entry" which is an important point to note). So the net entry here is $10, and you're subsequently paid out $20, so that's 150% payout.

However, you're correct overall in that it makes being reliant on manufacturers far and away the most cost effective move as a TD. For most TD's who are running events in their spare time, it just doesn't make fiscal sense given the valuable commodity of time to try to work outside of that system.

It also makes it that much harder for TD's to ever have a path to running profitable events, because it requires them to do 2 jobs (sales representative AND event planner) yet the skills that would make them profit (salesmanship) aren't the same as the skills that give a great player experience (event planning and logistics).

I'm quite sure that there was great context and situation for this system when it was set in place, and I'm also quite sure that the context and situation has changed, and these standards need to be re-addressed.

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