#61  
Old 09-14-2020, 05:11 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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Originally Posted by SaROCaM View Post
Back/drive leg is pushing straight toward the target; not initiating rotation, but initiating forward drive and weight shift that will result in rotation. Rotation is an effect.

Front leg is bracing and front hip drives rotation.

One leg drill is for getting the feel of getting on the front leg to rotate. If you want to feel it without the rear leg, then stand on the front leg with back leg off the ground and push forward off a wall with your back arm. This forward drive will get you on your front leg so you can do the one leg drill without using the back leg. Since it is your arm pushing forward, you will be able to see how it is not the rear leg rotating the pelvis since. Rear foot in the one leg drill is just what is needed for balance. Weight should be on the front leg.



I disagree somewhat. I've studied this way back when my son was a pitcher. The rear leg initiates rotation while the brace leg facilitates and finishes the rotation. Hip and torso rotation speed is in direct proportion to release velocity. It's why new players appear to just be turning or rounding into release. They haven't yet developed the muscles or ability yet to powerfully and quickly rotate their hips and torso. After a good distance workout it's my legs that feel the most fatigued and sore. Strong and quick rotation initiation requires a strong rear leg and rotation facilitation after initiation requires a strong front leg to brace against. Good disc golfers usually have well defined and strong upper legs and glutes.
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  #62  
Old 09-14-2020, 05:30 PM
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https://youtu.be/3-x6wM6xS9Q

Watch later on in the Super slo-mo where it's really slowed down and you can clearly see where Giancarlos rear hip starts to powerfully rotate just right before the front foot comes down into contact. Continue watching until the point where weight shift occurs from rear to front and you will notice that his hips are already halfway through the rotation. It's just after this moment that contact with the ball is made which equates to release point in disc golf.
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  #63  
Old 09-14-2020, 06:55 PM
SaROCaM SaROCaM is offline
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
https://youtu.be/3-x6wM6xS9Q

Watch later on in the Super slo-mo where it's really slowed down and you can clearly see where Giancarlos rear hip starts to powerfully rotate just right before the front foot comes down into contact. Continue watching until the point where weight shift occurs from rear to front and you will notice that his hips are already halfway through the rotation. It's just after this moment that contact with the ball is made which equates to release point in disc golf.
Not sure where/how you are seeing that. When he begins his stride his belt buckle is pointing at 3:00. When he is dynamically on his front foot his belt buckle is pointing at ~2:40. When contact with the ball is made his belt buckle is pointing at 12:00. If what you say is true that the hips are halfway through rotation when weight shifts, then his belt buckle should be pointing at 1:30 when he is dynamically on his front leg.

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  #64  
Old 09-14-2020, 07:31 PM
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Not sure where/how you are seeing that. When he begins his stride his belt buckle is pointing at 3:00. When he is dynamically on his front foot his belt buckle is pointing at ~2:40. When contact with the ball is made his belt buckle is pointing at 12:00. If what you say is true that the hips are halfway through rotation when weight shifts, then his belt buckle should be pointing at 1:30 when he is dynamically on his front leg.

Realize first the angle which the video is taken which is already at the 4:00 or so position. The belt during his windup, or stride counter rotates back to at at least the 4:00 position, maybe a tad more. Then as he begins his hip turn, which starts just before front foot contact it rotates into that 3:00 position. But, that is well before any real weight shift has occurred. The transition where 51% of his weight transfers to the front his belt is in the 2:00 position which is halfway of his total hip rotation, like I said. It's definitely not like some think where weight shift occurs before hip rotation. Hip rotation begins before weight shift.
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  #65  
Old 09-14-2020, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
I disagree somewhat. I've studied this way back when my son was a pitcher. The rear leg initiates rotation while the brace leg facilitates and finishes the rotation. Hip and torso rotation speed is in direct proportion to release velocity. It's why new players appear to just be turning or rounding into release. They haven't yet developed the muscles or ability yet to powerfully and quickly rotate their hips and torso. After a good distance workout it's my legs that feel the most fatigued and sore. Strong and quick rotation initiation requires a strong rear leg and rotation facilitation after initiation requires a strong front leg to brace against. Good disc golfers usually have well defined and strong upper legs and glutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
https://youtu.be/3-x6wM6xS9Q

Watch later on in the Super slo-mo where it's really slowed down and you can clearly see where Giancarlos rear hip starts to powerfully rotate just right before the front foot comes down into contact. Continue watching until the point where weight shift occurs from rear to front and you will notice that his hips are already halfway through the rotation. It's just after this moment that contact with the ball is made which equates to release point in disc golf.
The science and what you see may be correct, although it doesn't necessarily teach you how to swing. I do believe you aren't strong arming it, but you have barrel/arm drag with the arm too far behind your body, or rounding/hugging yourself. If you keep trying to chase the science and amp up your hip speed you are going to arm drag more and more and possibly hurt your back or shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSbWfNMapE&t=4m

Look at PP hip rotation here, just making a forward lateral move.
The feel might not be the scientific real, but it is the correct intention.




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  #66  
Old 09-14-2020, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
The science and what you see may be correct, although it doesn't necessarily teach you how to swing. I do believe you aren't strong arming it, but you have barrel/arm drag with the arm too far behind your body, or rounding/hugging yourself. If you keep trying to chase the science and amp up your hip speed you are going to arm drag more and more and possibly hurt your back or shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSbWfNMapE&t=4m

Look at PP hip rotation here, just making a forward lateral move.
The feel might not be the scientific real, but it is the correct intention.




Im not sure about the rounding or hugging thing.
PP is not rotating her hips in that drill. She is just jumping side to side. So ?

I have a theory with distance progression in disc golf in which most distance comes with time after the right muscle groups are built and trained to fire rapidly. My son videoed me the first week I started and surprisingly, my mechanics look almost identical now as back then. The difference is that the video looks like it's in slow motion. I have even slowed down my run up/x-step substantially. Where you really notice is how fast the torso is turning. When I first started it was really slow- looked like I was just slowly turning. In fact, almost every single form analysis in the form threads, showing new players, shows that same slow rotation. For those longer threads that take place where they keep posting update videos after months and even years you can see the progression of their hip and torso rotation dramatically increase.

I have been playing for just under 3 months now. Today I got a throw out to a new distance of 375. Normally I have been hitting in the 300-325 range but today I worked on trying to whip it out faster at release giving it everything I got. As one increases their rotation velocity their brace also becomes more pronounced naturally. The brace strength is in direct relation to release velocity. A low power shot on a 250 foot hole doesn't require much arm speed velocity and as such the brace won't be as strong or pronounced. It's the same in other sports such as Baseball. They have to use a special clay and packing techniques on the mound to both push off from and land and brace against. My son, who was a pitcher would literally drill massive holes in some of the improperly built mounds where his front foot would land because of the extreme brace required due to the velocity (90 mph fastball). I've noticed the same thing in disc golf. As my velocity has increased so too has the size of the holes I'm boring over and over into the dirt where I throw.

I don't really worry about all these technical points of throwing because I'm of the belief that you just keep trying and your body and mind adjust and work to correct and move more efficiently and more powerfully. I usually throw about 2 hours a day just throwing for distance and control. Now, I think it's safe to say that if the only parts of my body getting fatigued or sore is my upper legs from all the pushing and bracing then I am gonna stick with what is working for me. In that regards, PP in that video actually has a great drill for me to increase my leg strength in pushing and bracing.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
Im not sure about the rounding or hugging thing.
PP is not rotating her hips in that drill. She is just jumping side to side. So ?

I have a theory with distance progression in disc golf in which most distance comes with time after the right muscle groups are built and trained to fire rapidly. My son videoed me the first week I started and surprisingly, my mechanics look almost identical now as back then. The difference is that the video looks like it's in slow motion. I have even slowed down my run up/x-step substantially. Where you really notice is how fast the torso is turning. When I first started it was really slow- looked like I was just slowly turning. In fact, almost every single form analysis in the form threads, showing new players, shows that same slow rotation. For those longer threads that take place where they keep posting update videos after months and even years you can see the progression of their hip and torso rotation dramatically increase.

I have been playing for just under 3 months now. Today I got a throw out to a new distance of 375. Normally I have been hitting in the 300-325 range but today I worked on trying to whip it out faster at release giving it everything I got. As one increases their rotation velocity their brace also becomes more pronounced naturally. The brace strength is in direct relation to release velocity. A low power shot on a 250 foot hole doesn't require much arm speed velocity and as such the brace won't be as strong or pronounced. It's the same in other sports such as Baseball. They have to use a special clay and packing techniques on the mound to both push off from and land and brace against. My son, who was a pitcher would literally drill massive holes in some of the improperly built mounds where his front foot would land because of the extreme brace required due to the velocity (90 mph fastball). I've noticed the same thing in disc golf. As my velocity has increased so too has the size of the holes I'm boring over and over into the dirt where I throw.

I don't really worry about all these technical points of throwing because I'm of the belief that you just keep trying and your body and mind adjust and work to correct and move more efficiently and more powerfully. I usually throw about 2 hours a day just throwing for distance and control. Now, I think it's safe to say that if the only parts of my body getting fatigued or sore is my upper legs from all the pushing and bracing then I am gonna stick with what is working for me. In that regards, PP in that video actually has a great drill for me to increase my leg strength in pushing and bracing.
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The hip being straight meaning it has rotated back from the reach back position to a neutral position 90 degrees from the release location. From there it rotates another 30-40 degrees or so at the moment of release. My main point is that the hips begin rotating from the reach back position and are halfway through their rotation by the time the weight has shifted from rear leg to front leg.
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
https://youtu.be/YIlGk-8y1_c

Watch Eagles knees closely in relation to his weight shift from rear to front foot. The knee is the indicator of hip rotation. Just before front foot contact the knee begins to dip and turn indicating hip rotation. By the time his rear foot begins to come up, which indicates the moment of weight shift, his hips have already rotated approximately 45 degrees which is halfway through total hip rotation from reachback to disc release moment. Now, also of importance, his reachback is still back, with shoulders still yet to rotate forward at the moment of weight shift. So, even though his shoulders have yet to rotate forward at the exact monwnt of weight shift, his hips have already started to rotate and are halfway through their rotation at this moment.
Now, I have watched other pros and the timing is different from each which is interesting in how each generates or initiates their kinetic chain. I used Eagle because he arguably has the most efficient release in the game.
PP rear knee does just what you described with Eagle indicating rotation.

Your theory and experience does not jive with my own experience or what I've witnessed over and over for over a decade. You might be a unicorn.

Do these new players have slow rotation because they aren't trying to rotate? Or could it be that lack of linear weightshift is causing their rotation to be slow, dragging?

You say you don't worry about all these technical points of throwing, yet you make it a point to worry about the technical rotation of the rear leg.

I also think you and I have a different definition of weightshift. You keep talking about a static moment, it's a dynamic process.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:41 PM
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PP rear knee does just what you described with Eagle indicating rotation.

Your theory and experience does not jive with my own experience or what I've witnessed over and over for over a decade. You might be a unicorn.

Do these new players have slow rotation because they aren't trying to rotate? Or could it be that lack of linear weightshift is causing their rotation to be slow, dragging?

You say you don't worry about all these technical points of throwing, yet you make it a point to worry about the technical rotation of the rear leg.

I also think you and I have a different definition of weightshift. You keep talking about a static moment, it's a dynamic process.
Their rotation is slow because they haven't built up and trained the right muscle groups to rotate faster. It takes time. The only aspect or point I'm making of the rear leg is that one cannot properly activate hip rotation without the rear leg. And, hip rotation starts on the back leg before the weight shifts to the front leg.

By "weightshift" I'm speaking of the moment when the majority of the weight of the body shifts from off the back leg to the front leg. Yes, it is dynamic. So is the hip rotation. Hip rotation starts before front foot contact and is halfway through its rotation at that moment when the majority of the body weight shifts to the brace leg.

In baseball pitchers the rotation is even more pronounced before front foot contact where most of the hip rotation happens before the front foot makes contact to brace against.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:46 PM
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Pelvis is moving linearly forward while turning back away with the shoulders.
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  #70  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:14 PM
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Their rotation is slow because they haven't built up and trained the right muscle groups to rotate faster. It takes time. The only aspect or point I'm making of the rear leg is that one cannot properly activate hip rotation without the rear leg. And, hip rotation starts on the back leg before the weight shifts to the front leg.

By "weightshift" I'm speaking of the moment when the majority of the weight of the body shifts from off the back leg to the front leg. Yes, it is dynamic. So is the hip rotation. Hip rotation starts before front foot contact and is halfway through its rotation at that moment when the majority of the body weight shifts to the brace leg.

In baseball pitchers the rotation is even more pronounced before front foot contact where most of the hip rotation happens before the front foot makes contact to brace against.
I disagree about the cause of slow rotation, although I agree it is a factor, but that same factor also causes the linear move to be slower and resulting rotation slower.

I agree that hip rotation technically starts before weightshift/plant(when there is actual weightshift) just like I said in Swivel Chair Drill. It's also more pronounced in pitching because they take a longer stride and the right hip or hip on the same side of the throwing arm is on the backside with the arm, so it has to start rotating earlier and open up the front side to allow the trailing arm to swing thru. In disc golf we don't swing the trailing arm, need to plant with the hips still closed to swing the lead shoulder/arm thru without the rear side getting in the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=23s
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