#151  
Old 09-17-2020, 04:56 PM
RowingBoats RowingBoats is offline
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No sooner than Calvin Heimburg. Do you think he opens his hips too early?
The video you linked shows a continuous rotation. I just watched Heimburg in slow motion drives and there is a noticeable pause in the brace, which is precisely the 'thing' that I just had a revelation in feel about. Now that I felt it, I can see it in all of the drives. No pro drives like the video you posted, but it is very easy to overlook that without feeling it first.

If what you are arguing were the ideal way to generate power, that is, with deliberate rotational forces, why would you even have a weight shift? Why wouldn't you just wind up as far as you can and spin as fast as possible to generate the maximum power? What is your step forward attempting to accomplish if rotation is the engine, and not incidental?
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  #152  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:02 PM
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First, the importance of hip power vs. Arm power. I will post another on my perception of the weight transfer point and the relationship of the hip, torso and shoulders.

https://youtu.be/poV82_XKzAQ

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  #153  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:25 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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Originally Posted by RowingBoats View Post
The video you linked shows a continuous rotation. I just watched Heimburg in slow motion drives and there is a noticeable pause in the brace, which is precisely the 'thing' that I just had a revelation in feel about. Now that I felt it, I can see it in all of the drives. No pro drives like the video you posted, but it is very easy to overlook that without feeling it first.

If what you are arguing were the ideal way to generate power, that is, with deliberate rotational forces, why would you even have a weight shift? Why wouldn't you just wind up as far as you can and spin as fast as possible to generate the maximum power? What is your step forward attempting to accomplish if rotation is the engine, and not incidental?
Rotation is what converts the rotational torque of the torso into and through the arm extending into release. Personally, my brace isn't powerful yet, neither is my rotation. I'm still pretty new. I do know how the power is generated though and can feel it in my core as it coils and then unwinds.
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  #154  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:34 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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Originally Posted by RowingBoats View Post
The video you linked shows a continuous rotation. I just watched Heimburg in slow motion drives and there is a noticeable pause in the brace, which is precisely the 'thing' that I just had a revelation in feel about. Now that I felt it, I can see it in all of the drives. No pro drives like the video you posted, but it is very easy to overlook that without feeling it first.

If what you are arguing were the ideal way to generate power, that is, with deliberate rotational forces, why would you even have a weight shift? Why wouldn't you just wind up as far as you can and spin as fast as possible to generate the maximum power? What is your step forward attempting to accomplish if rotation is the engine, and not incidental?
The video was throwing no disc and at low power. I went and watched video of my own throwing a disc and there is a noticeable pause in the hip in rotation as I release the disc. Thanks for pointing that out.
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  #155  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:36 PM
RowingBoats RowingBoats is offline
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
Rotation is what converts the rotational torque of the torso into and through the arm extending into release. Personally, my brace isn't powerful yet, neither is my rotation. I'm still pretty new. I do know how the power is generated though and can feel it in my core as it coils and then unwinds.
I am new also, so my wording is probably poor, but I am standing here swinging around like a moron trying to understand how it would even be possible to brace against rotational torque. You can't perform a hockey stop out of a figure skating spin. The concept of a brace 100% implies lateral momentum to brace against.

I'm no sidewinder, but I would imagine you are kind of reversed in your thought about the movement. You are rotating with incidental lateral movement, and should be the other way around. Your incidental lateral movement is not powerful enough to cause the feeling of an actual brace.

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  #156  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:47 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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I am new also, so my wording is probably poor, but I am standing here swinging around like a moron trying to understand how it would even be possible to brace against rotational torque. You can't perform a hockey stop out of a figure skating spin. The concept of a brace 100% implies lateral momentum to brace against.

I'm no sidewinder, but I would imagine you are kind of reversed in your thought about the movement. You are rotating with incidental lateral movement, and should be the other way around. Your incidental lateral movement is not powerful enough to cause the feeling of an actual brace.
I'm new and it's hard to explain things in disc golf terms. Lateral movement as I understand is the motion of the run-up and x step. By itself, lateral motion is just that- motion forward. It has no rotational motion or ability on its own. It's when you produce rotation to initiate torque combined with lateral motion that provides the power. I can run laterally all I want and then brace against my front leg and there will be absolutely no rotation as the brace happens. Lateral motion and bracing provides no rotation on its own. You have to initiate rotation with the rear leg just prior to brace that creates the torque to rotate as the brace forces the rotation already begun to pivot against and come around powerfully. It requires both legs to generate the spin- the rear to initiate and the front to pivot against to increase whip. That's how I understand it.
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  #157  
Old 09-17-2020, 05:54 PM
RowingBoats RowingBoats is offline
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I'm new and it's hard to explain things in disc golf terms. Lateral movement as I understand is the motion of the run-up and x step. By itself, lateral motion is just that- motion forward. It has no rotational motion or ability on its own. It's when you produce rotation to initiate torque combined with lateral motion that provides the power. I can run laterally all I want and then brace against my front leg and there will be absolutely no rotation as the brace happens. Lateral motion and bracing provides no rotation on its own. You have to initiate rotation with the rear leg just prior to brace that creates the torque to rotate as the brace forces the rotation already begun to pivot against and come around powerfully. It requires both legs to generate the spin- the rear to initiate and the front to pivot against to increase whip. That's how I understand it.
You can generate a fair bit of power doing what you are describing, much more than simply strong-arming, or at least with much less effort. This counts as a revelation compared to strong-arming and I get it. If this were easy to describe these discussions would be a lot shorter.

I was doing exactly what you are defending, not because I believed it was the best way, but it was the only way I had to work with. Everyone has said lots of things that make perfect sense after I had this feeling now...and this has probably been one of them but:

To generate the power your way, I imagine you 'feel' like you are starting the engine with your rear hip rotating forward. Try to mentally do the opposite, and use your leading hip to rotate 'backwards'. Argh I really don't know, that isn't really it either. There certainly is a fundamental difference in the feeling of trying to rotate, and...doing this other thing.
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  #158  
Old 09-17-2020, 06:02 PM
RowingBoats RowingBoats is offline
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Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
I'm new and it's hard to explain things in disc golf terms. Lateral movement as I understand is the motion of the run-up and x step. By itself, lateral motion is just that- motion forward. It has no rotational motion or ability on its own. It's when you produce rotation to initiate torque combined with lateral motion that provides the power. I can run laterally all I want and then brace against my front leg and there will be absolutely no rotation as the brace happens. Lateral motion and bracing provides no rotation on its own. You have to initiate rotation with the rear leg just prior to brace that creates the torque to rotate as the brace forces the rotation already begun to pivot against and come around powerfully. It requires both legs to generate the spin- the rear to initiate and the front to pivot against to increase whip. That's how I understand it.
If you 'crush the can' during your lateral running, you don't feel it drive your front hip back, causing a rotational force that is not initiated by the back hip?
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  #159  
Old 09-17-2020, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RowingBoats View Post
I am new also, so my wording is probably poor, but I am standing here swinging around like a moron trying to understand how it would even be possible to brace against rotational torque. You can't perform a hockey stop out of a figure skating spin. The concept of a brace 100% implies lateral momentum to brace against.

You are rotating with incidental lateral movement, and should be the other way around. Your incidental lateral movement is not powerful enough to cause the feeling of an actual brace.
.

^^ This
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  #160  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:21 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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If you 'crush the can' during your lateral running, you don't feel it drive your front hip back, causing a rotational force that is not initiated by the back hip?
Not sure what you are saying but however forward hip rotation starts, it begins just before front foot plant. If one waited until all the weight was on the front foot before hip rotation started they wouldn't be able to rotate.
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