#961  
Old 09-17-2020, 11:54 PM
roblee roblee is offline
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Mando,
Just read your fb updates for Sugaree. Grooming fairways or clearing landing zones there would be nothing short of sacrilege! Wonderful & generous contribution to your DG community!
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  #962  
Old 09-18-2020, 09:01 AM
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Mando Mando is offline
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Originally Posted by roblee View Post
Mando,
Just read your fb updates for Sugaree. Grooming fairways or clearing landing zones there would be nothing short of sacrilege! Wonderful & generous contribution to your DG community!
Thanks. That's actually the first and only concrete pad on the course...simply no other option. My goal is when the baskets are pulled, no one would ever think there was disc golf course on the property. I hope you can come up and play it sometime. Would love to talk about forestry and sustainable disc golf design.

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Last edited by Mando; 09-18-2020 at 09:04 AM.
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  #963  
Old 09-18-2020, 12:40 PM
tahoe tahoe is offline
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Civil discourse and acknowledging that we are all learning!
John may be one of the most experienced course designers but he admits there is A LOT to learn, especially about 'sustainability'. His wife Dee admitted that John would like to have had a formal education in ecology, design, landscape architecture but that it was now a 'little late in life'. Now they are reaching out to collaborate with experts in relevant fields. There is tremendous responsibility in his role as a leader in course design. Jarva is an example of a landscape architect and his brother (landscape designer) transforming a naturalized disturbed landfill into one of the highest rated courses in the world, but it took decades, not one summer of club volunteers... We need to slow down and professionalize this holistic process. If we can admit that disc golf course design today is in its infancy and too myopic up to this point, then there may be hope? I find it interesting that disc golfers discuss #growthesport from all kinds of different angles except the one I feel is most important; design/build better, more attractive, more sustainable courses... Folks who already play seem to be blind to the damage to our landscapes because they are hyper-focused on the shots, the challenge, the length, the baskets, etc... To 'outsiders' most courses are not 'legible' or 'legitimate' (terms I've tried to coin in my landscape architecture thesis: Disc Golf Course Design: Inscribing Lifestyle into Underutilized Landscapes, 2013), they appear disturbed and trampled like elephant's skin, not like a 'golf course'. In order for courses to read as 'legible' and 'legitimate' down the road (25 years as suggested in a previous post), they must be 'sustainable' which primarily means preventing and managing erosion, compaction and soil profiles with trail system hierarchy, rotating greens, rotating fairways, armoring slopes, heavy mulching, etc... As a licensed landscape architect and course design I seek to help us turn that corner... But this requires real professionalization where designers and their teams are compensated appropriately. This transition should incorporate the volunteer efforts of well organized clubs and their fundraising but land managers need to lose the impression that they can 'get a course for free' and shown why their ROI will go through the roof for a professionally designed course or complex on an appropriate property for disc golf...

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  #964  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tahoe View Post
If we can admit that disc golf course design today is in its infancy and too myopic up to this point, then there may be hope? I find it interesting that disc golfers discuss #growthesport from all kinds of different angles except the one I feel is most important; design/build better, more attractive, more sustainable courses... Folks who already play seem to be blind to the damage to our landscapes because they are hyper-focused on the shots, the challenge, the length, the baskets, etc...
Anyone who has the good sense to live near Lake Tahoe, gets my attention. My thoughts in a nutshell ! But, it's gonna be a tough sell.

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  #965  
Old 09-19-2020, 02:05 AM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Mando, the idea that wider fairways on a course like Jackson might lead to windthrow problems is a new one to me, so I'm eager to know what you have to say.

I am working on a course where, in certain areas, they have a species of tall, thin, vulnerable pines, and I understand that we will likely lose some of those trees over time due to wind. I've designed those fairways around the existing hardwoods to prepare for that possibility, and as long as the pines last, they are a bonus.

Haven't heard of any issues at Jackson since we started clearing fairways in 2005/2006. But, as I said, I'm always wanting to learn and to hear new perspectives, so I'm looking forward to hearing your concerns. Thanks.
Yes the other concern hearing they are tall thin pines makes me wonder are they that way due to being too close together ? I live in South Dakota and have seen when in Black Hills fires happen due to tall thin trees the Ponderosa Pine that are only very thin due to being too close together. Odd most think of the Black Hills Spruce, not the Pine but there is in large parts of the Black Hills more the Pine then Spruce.
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  #966  
Old 09-23-2020, 04:20 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Monocacy View Post
Hi John, anything new on Agape Farms in Shirleysburg, PA?

Thanks!
OK, here's your first update. Very excited about this course.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFfRJAzp..._web_copy_link

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  #967  
Old 09-23-2020, 10:20 PM
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Monocacy Monocacy is offline
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OK, here's your first update. Very excited about this course.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFfRJAzp..._web_copy_link
Thanks for the update! Pretty hole, looks like one where things could go really well or horribly wrong.

Although 270' ain't a putter throw for me, unless straight off a cliff . . .
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  #968  
Old 09-24-2020, 10:19 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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It’s pretty down hill and will play more like low 200’s. I’m sure a lot of people will keep the putter in the bag and opt for a disc that fades hard on a righty forehand or left backhand. You’re over the ravine the whole way and do not want to finish left.

The photo I posted is not quite from the tee, but you get the idea. And there is also a (tricky) RTL option if you want to avoid the ravine.

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  #969  
Old 09-26-2020, 02:32 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
Thx for the reply. I have been involved in disc golf for probably 25+ years and the evolution im seeing on the pro side of the sport concerns me for the future challenge of disc golf.
We have amazing pieces of land but every year these heavily wooded courses add string and paint to make them more challenging for pros. Or they put the basket impossibly close to o.b. or make the landing area thinner.
It is important to make courses more challenging for pros -- the question is how. You know I'm on the record as not being a fan of rope/string/paint for that purpose.

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Natural o.b. no longer exists and a 40ft putt is routine.
We dont even have a influx of athletes in our game yet, its still a baby.
Take Roy G in austin for example. That course is beautiful and challenging but if the pro tour played it on a regular basis as-is. I predict someone would shoot 18 under within 5yrs....
So we would add string and paint to add challenge when i think a precision 40ft putt on a thinner basket would do the trick.(and see below)
So what I'm getting form your comments is that, in an effort to make courses more challenging for pros, and especially to address the "gimme-ness" of putts that result from good drives/approaches, we should make the basket thinner INSTEAD OF adding artificial OB.

My thought is to start with design improvements, like making Circle 1 harder to get to, and I've offered a couple examples of holes that may be achieving that goal. There are several ways to make that happen, and length is only only of them (I call the main techniques WEALTH, for Width, Elevation, Angle, Length, Trouble, and Height).

I also believe we need to me more discerning about the properties we use for big events, like say DGPT and major events. If the course/property can't make the grade, then let's find a place that does. A place like Roy G has a lot to offer, but it doesn't have water features or elevation. So it may be great for hosting tournaments, just not the top tournaments.

With great properties and great design, we should be able to give top pros all they can handle without having to change the basket. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun or educational to experiment with thinner baskets, I'm just saying there are things I'd recommending doing now.

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  #970  
Old 09-27-2020, 10:37 AM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
I also believe we need to me more discerning about the properties we use for big events, like say DGPT and major events. If the course/property can't make the grade, then let's find a place that does. A place like Roy G has a lot to offer, but it doesn't have water features or elevation. So it may be great for hosting tournaments, just not the top tournaments.

With great properties and great design, we should be able to give top pros all they can handle without having to change the basket. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun or educational to experiment with thinner baskets, I'm just saying there are things I'd recommending doing now.
Disc golf has come a long way as a sport since I was involved, but as much progress has been made we are not to the point where you can go to Innova and say "We know you have all these connections and sponsorship tied to this place, but USDGC can't stay on this course." You can't tell Nate Heinold he has to get better courses in Eureka or Ledgestone won't make the cut. The promoters who raise the cash for the payouts still have the power, and the players play wherever the promoter who has the cash tell them to.

On the flip side, the promoters are not in this on some power trip. These guys are disc golfers, they want what is best. I'm sure Innova wishes there was a ready-to-go outstanding course they could roll into and use for USDGC. Setting up Winthrop every year is a major undertaking. I'm sure they don't do it because they want to, they do it because they have evaluated it to be their best option. So here we are.

You know better than I that progress in disc golf moves at the speed of molasses in January, but it does move. It seems to me that one day 20 years from now this will largely be an issue from the past and we will look up and think "Remember when everyone was complaining about the courses the Pro's played? It's just not going to happen fast, it will evolve slowly.

I think that's one of the reason the thinner targets gets so much play; it's something it seems like you can do for DGPT/Major events right now, not wait a couple of decades for it to evolve. Whether it will work or not is secondary to the fact that it's possible, where moving USDGC off Winthrop isn't.

When I was a kid people used to say "patience is a virtue". I think all those people are dead now.
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