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View Poll Results: Putting is?
Putting is too easy, narrower basket would be nice on challenging courses 84 17.43%
Putting is about right, keep the basket size 383 79.46%
Putting is too hard, Make the baskets bigger 15 3.11%
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  #261  
Old 12-23-2016, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
We have alot of things holding us back. Staying the same makes no sense.change is good bro
Highly speculative. What evidence is there that anything's holding us back? That we'd be somewhere else, but for those things.

Staying the same makes sense if it means continued remarkable growth in almost all aspects of the game.

Change might be good, of course, but it's far from certain.
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  #262  
Old 12-23-2016, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Can anybody provide any statistics to show that putting on a narrower basket is harder?
It would have to be, wouldn't it? But the question would be, how much narrower? Bulls-eye? Narrower than that?

One of my local courses has old baskets that are noticeably narrower than standard baskets, though not nearly to the degree bulls-yes are. I like them and sort of wish baskets were that size, or even slightly smaller, but not extremely thin.

I think the statistics you need are not whether narrower baskets make putting harder, but how much? Enough to have a significant effect, and be worth the effort? Too much, so that they take away the longer runs?

It's interesting to me that proposals are almost always to make them narrower, and not make the vertical window shorter. Personally, I think a basket with about 2/3 the height of the target area would be tougher than a narrow basket.
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  #263  
Old 12-23-2016, 11:34 PM
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I think we should keep the baskets the same but surround them on all sides with rings of fire they have to pass through. Melting their 20 year old Aviar might give Johnny Pro more pause plus it would look exxxxxxxtreme!

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  #264  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:14 AM
mizunodave mizunodave is offline
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Small basket scenario:

Player one, upshot to 20 feet.
Player two, upshot to 50 feet.
Player two misses leaving a drop in for par.
Player one also misses because the basket is so small leaving a drop in for par.
No scoring separation to show that player one played the hole significantly better.

That's how I see this going and it isn't an improvement.
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  #265  
Old 12-24-2016, 06:24 AM
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Great thread. Lots of thoughtful posts and research.

Personally I like the concept of a narrower basket. The only problem is the anecdotal evidence that a hard, super accurate putt can bounce out after having smacked the center pole. But I think that's a problem that can probably be ironed out with further design and testing. Maybe more chains, I'm guessing.

I also remember seeing someone suggest smaller baskets would discourage pros from running long putts and encourage many more lay-ups, especially on tricky greens with perilous rollaway dangers etc.

My solution to this would be to install narrower baskets on some holes, with flatter, more open and more boring greens while retaining the traditional baskets on the trickier, riskier greens. Doing this would encourage players to run putts in riskier spots more often while increasing the putting difficulty on lamer, more boring greens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILUVSMGS18 View Post
I know that I will probably get trolled for saying this, but we should modify the greens to be more of a factor into how hard a putt is.
This is an interesting suggestion. An undulating DG green in the woods with rocks, trees, boulders, hills, ledges, water etc. surrounding the basket can be way trickier to approach and hole out on than a DG green in the middle of a flat, open grassy field.

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Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
We have to take DG to a new level.
Why?

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Personally, I think a basket with about 2/3 the height of the target area would be tougher than a narrow basket.
This is the first time I've seen this suggested. It's so simple, I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of it.

Making the catching area shorter instead of narrower would at least solve the anecdotal problem of The Marksmen and Bull's-Eye or any other extremely narrow basket spitting out putts that hit the center pole so hard they bounce out and miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizunodave View Post
Small basket scenario:

Player one, upshot to 20 feet.
Player two, upshot to 50 feet.
Player two misses leaving a drop in for par.
Player one also misses because the basket is so small leaving a drop in for par.
No scoring separation to show that player one played the hole significantly better..
Wait. Why did player one play the hole significantly better again?

His approach was 60% closer, I guess. But he also missed a putt that was 60% closer.

This scenario makes it seem like both players would make these seperate putts at the same %. That would make player one, who seems to have a better approach game (at least on this hole) than player two, a poorer putter than player two. In this case, it's entirely plausible and fair that they would make the same score on this hole because while player one has a better approach game, player two is a better putter.
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  #266  
Old 12-24-2016, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corin_brown View Post
This is the first time I've seen this suggested. It's so simple, I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of it.

Making the catching area shorter instead of narrower would at least solve the anecdotal problem of The Marksmen and Bull's-Eye or any other extremely narrow basket spitting out putts that hit the center pole so hard they bounce out and miss.
To be fair, it's not my idea. It's come up in other threads, though it gets drowned out by the narrow-the-baskets movement.

I'm not sure, but I feel like I'm more inaccurate vertically than horizontally. I make putts that barely creep over the rip, or hit high in the chains, or all sorts of places in between.

Someone somewhere also suggested a simple temporary retrofit---a sort of hard cap that fits over the top and covers the top foot (or whatever) of chains. Which makes me think that perhaps someone would come up with a device to temporarily narrow chains on an existing basket, too. Then, advocates could demonstrate the merits of either concept with test tournaments and casual rounds, without the expense and controversy of completely retrofitting courses.
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  #267  
Old 12-24-2016, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corin_brown View Post
This is an interesting suggestion. An undulating DG green in the woods with rocks, trees, boulders, hills, ledges, water etc. surrounding the basket can be way trickier to approach and hole out on than a DG green in the middle of a flat, open grassy field.
This reminds me that we're all influenced by our experiences.

The courses that I play most are full of dangerous greens----rollaway hazards, elevation changes ranging from mild to dramatic, trees to straddle-putt around, and nearby OB to avoid. Open, level greens are the exception.

If I often played courses with easier greens, it might change my outlook on changing the baskets a bit.
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  #268  
Old 12-24-2016, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
Give Mcbeth a full time non-disc golf job and he is good , not great. Give your local pro a full time disc golf job and he becomes great.
And there's a correlation between smaller baskets and more money coming into the sport?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
Smaller baskets , even if just for NTs, is a huge start to validate our sport.
Ahh, so that's what this is about.

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Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
It will only showcase the talent of the pros while making ams and local pros appreciate what they see on YouTube.
Ahh, apparently one end game is that the rest of us are supposed to be relegated to watching instead of playing, on Youtube no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
Ask your local pro if he thinks if he was able to play full time could he challenge Mcbeth. 90% would say yes. And that's a problem. No other sport works that way. Just my opinion.
But, you still haven't made the correlation into how making the game more challenging is going to enable such people to play disc golf full time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
More exposure isn't gonna grow our sport, we need to increase the difficulty level
Yeah, all more exposure has done has put 3,000+ courses in the ground and got a number of new manufacturers and other companies up and running. Eff that. Until we have pros making six figures and the rest of us eating at sports bars watching the big disc golf events on the tube (which will likely be our phones), then we just haven't arrived.
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  #269  
Old 12-24-2016, 09:24 AM
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Go back to using Mach I baskets. They spit out any putt that had any force to them. Make putting more of a touch shot. Going at the basket hard makes putting easier.

And agreeing with scarpfish, the pro tour is not growing the sport.
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  #270  
Old 12-24-2016, 10:48 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
It would have to be [harder to hit a narrower target], wouldn't it?
Maybe not. Here are three hypotheses:
The sweet spot on the target is within the narrower width anyway, so whatever happens to the left and right of that doesn’t matter.

The outer chains do as much to push slightly off-center putts out as to slow down and catch the dead-center putts.

A narrower target helps the players focus more on the sweet spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
It's interesting to me that proposals are almost always to make them narrower, and not make the vertical window shorter. Personally, I think a basket with about 2/3 the height of the target area would be tougher than a narrow basket.
Fourth hypothesis:
The call is always for narrower, not shorter, baskets because the players instinctively know it won’t be any harder to hit the narrower target.
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