#61  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:33 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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I was hoping by now that someone would chime in and know the answer. Especially when I saw Houck posting.

I, too, am curious as to how we got on this track. And I don't know; the train was already on it when I began 25 years ago. Was it a PDGA decision from the start, as soon as they decided to have amateurs to pay them in plastic? Was it a bright idea from Innova, that the PDGA later adopted? Was it just fallout from starting with a pro division, and the practice of paying people; that an amateur division would also pay people.....sort of, in cash?

I lament it but won't lambast it; growth has been strong, and a lot of people seem to like it. But it is striking how different it is from most, if not all, other sports.
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  #62  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:15 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
What do I do with all this tin foil now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_oFhUQ3Ex8
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  #63  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:19 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
World's Biggest gets forgotten, but that was a pretty pure promotional event. There wasn't a "tournament," you just got a disc, a mini and a shirt and played. When there was an award, it went to the person who brought the most new players out with them. We already mentioned that back then you rarely got a shirt at an event; World's Biggest shirts were the most common disc golf gear we had in my area. I used to put flyers up by the pool and get unsuspecting barefoot kids in swimming trunks to come back and frolf, it was a good time. Nobody mentions it anymore, but it was a cool event back in the day that was effective in its day. You should keep that on your resume.
Thanks for that reminder. World's Biggest was all about learning to enjoy this fun new sport.

And you guys always did a great job with that, so thanks again for that, too.

It's been amazing over the years to hear stories of players -- sometimes very accomplished players -- whose first DG experience was at their local World's Biggest.

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  #64  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:30 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Was it a PDGA decision from the start, as soon as they decided to have amateurs to pay them in plastic? Was it a bright idea from Innova, that the PDGA later adopted? Was it just fallout from starting with a pro division, and the practice of paying people; that an amateur division would also pay people.....sort of, in cash?
How the payout structure started is a great question, and I'm sorry I don't remember. I certainly don't remember the creation of a second division being a big deal.

Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.

I also remember that at some point (probably at the request of the PDGA), the am payouts became deeper (all the way to 50%), so that more players would be rewarded and so that the top players wouldn't get to "rich" with merch. Paying the top guys less was meant to encourage them to move up to pro.

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  #65  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:19 AM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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Fascinating read.

I always assumed it was manufacturer driven. What better way to shift some discs than get someone else to run tournaments and shift them for you? Am players are far more profitable to companies than pro players. Player packs are a great way of putting new discs in a players hand that might not ever try them otherwise. It sounds like I may be wrong on this though?

We've never really had payouts or player packs over here, I'm conflicted now about them. For the first 25 years of the sports history here we had one winner and a couple of others who would make up the top 5, the rest were just there for the social. Fortunately that one winner was a stand up guy that played for the love of the sport and felt it would be unfair (and potentially put players off coming) to just keep taking other peoples money. Also without an on the ground manufacturer, offering player packs didn't really create enough of a wholesale/retail differential to be worth the effort after shipping/import taxes/length in advance of ordering etc.

As such players don't yet expect a bribe to turn up and play in comps. Although the attitude is starting to creep in.

I'm now in the odd position of manufacturing discs locally so player packs make sense and yet not really wanting to go down that route as it doesn't strike me as a good direction for the sport.

One of our biggest and most popular events over the last 10 years has been a team matchplay event with no prizes just bragging rights.

I'd love to see more focus on the PDGA supporting bigger am focused events (B and A tier) with less/no payout requirements in future, let the market decide if it wants them, I think it probably does.

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  #66  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
How the payout structure started is a great question, and I'm sorry I don't remember. I certainly don't remember the creation of a second division being a big deal.

Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.

I also remember that at some point (probably at the request of the PDGA), the am payouts became deeper (all the way to 50%), so that more players would be rewarded and so that the top players wouldn't get to "rich" with merch. Paying the top guys less was meant to encourage them to move up to pro.
Thanks. I remember the payouts becoming deeper; when I began in the mid-90s it was the top 30-35%, and a few years after went to 50%.

The Ams feeling it unfair to simply be funding the pros certainly sounds like a likely contributor to the change.
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  #67  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:35 AM
dorseymatt dorseymatt is offline
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Anyone have any guesses as to what percentage of sold/moved discs are via players packs and am payouts, vs retail?

I’m skeptical that it was an accident it got this way.

How dependent on this system are the disc manufacturers to move their product?

My guess: significantly.


Last edited by dorseymatt; 06-13-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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  #68  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:05 AM
Motorpro Motorpro is offline
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All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly. You people talk like the only amatures are designated that by the gods of the PDGA. Go to the local parks any day there is no event going on and you find real Am's playing for the fun of the game. Some play alone to beat the course. Some play with there friends for bragging rights. Some will play with anyone they run into for the fun of it. I have met players who could give some pros a run for their money but mostly people like me who will most likely never throw past 300' But they play because they love it. Sure I like to play in an event once in a while but those rounds with friends or strangers can be just as exiting and fun.

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  #69  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:13 AM
Motorpro Motorpro is offline
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By the way no one played before there were amatures......amatures invented the game! Later some became pros.

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  #70  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:27 AM
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Of course, the discussion isn't about amateurs playing (casually). It's about amateur divisions in organized competition (specifically, PDGA-sanctioned events).

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