#681  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:47 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Utrecht, NL
Years Playing: 9.7
Courses Played: 67
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 203
Niced 161 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
I am playing FPO, The openest gender-protected division.
I have been a member of the PDGA Women's Committee since summer of '17.
I am hosting disc golf workshops for womxn.
I am helping raise female participation in my country, by helping those women already active overcome mental hurdles.
I actually forgot to mention one; I've been doing this for 3 years now; I offer new players in The Netherlands who are either female or junior a complimentary PDGA membership.
It just dawned upon me, as I was writing the post making that announcement.
Sponsored Links

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #682  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:58 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Courses Played: 1
Posts: 433
Niced 194 Times in 103 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
I actually forgot to mention one; I've been doing this for 3 years now; I offer new players in The Netherlands who are either female or junior a complimentary PDGA membership.
It just dawned upon me, as I was writing the post making that announcement.
I just wanted to say that while I totally get that it's impossible to let the trolls not get to you at least a little, it's really awesome to see how you've handled yourself in the face of their hate. The world and the disc golf community are better because of people like you so I sincerely hope your game picks back up and people stop sucking so much. The second seems less likely, so get out there and putt!

Reply With Quote
  #683  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:23 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Years Playing: 9
Courses Played: 19
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,638
Niced 1,156 Times in 670 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
I am playing FPO, The openest gender-protected division.
I have been a member of the PDGA Women's Committee since summer of '17.
I am hosting disc golf workshops for womxn.
I am helping raise female participation in my country, by helping those women already active overcome mental hurdles.
btw..the only reason I commented like I did was because of your earlier post witch made it sound like you were a bit depressed about the current state of events:

"It's like I can't play disc golf anymore, like I have absolutely no confidence anymore, or even afraid to throw well. I thought all the thousands of messages of hate had not left their mark on me. I guess I was wrong."

That's why I said if you're in it for the competition, go for it. Otherwise do something to get the social experience positive again. Something to overshadow any negativity you are experiencing. Sounds like you're doing all the above, but if you're still not having fun, then perhaps just playing a few solo rounds might help. That always helps me get back to the main reason I love this game. Just myself enjoying the outdoors and throwing some plastic.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #684  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:30 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Utrecht, NL
Years Playing: 9.7
Courses Played: 67
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 203
Niced 161 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
I just wanted to say that while I totally get that it's impossible to let the trolls not get to you at least a little, it's really awesome to see how you've handled yourself in the face of their hate. The world and the disc golf community are better because of people like you so I sincerely hope your game picks back up and people stop sucking so much. The second seems less likely, so get out there and putt!
Thank you, Rob. That means very much to me.

It was al the joy and pride and I had felt from the moment I was allowed to play in gender-protected divisions earlier this year, and the other women on the cards I played on, and together we were creating a positive feedback loop, which resulted in my confidence on the course being at an all-time high during Worlds. Talk about peaking at the right moment.

At the HOFC next week, I am hoping to feel some of that again. At least, a lot of love and support and acceptance await me there.
I am also fearing some stink eye, and I don't know what each will do to me. Or how that will affect the already disturbed equilibrium.

And no, discerdoo, i am not whining, this is not a pity party.
I am exposing to the world what effects prolonged bullying by a multitude of people has on a person's confidence.do with it what you want.
The haterest or bullied-est of people were not in this thread. This is by far the more civil discussion, so this is where I show & share more of the effects this has on me.

And if this effect is exactly what the world was hoping for, they'll be sorry. Very sorry
This is a dip.
A deep one, yes. But I will - like I have before, remember, I lived the miserable life of a prisoner bullied by the body they were stuck in - rise from the ashes, like a Phoenix. Magnificently.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #685  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:09 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Utrecht, NL
Years Playing: 9.7
Courses Played: 67
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 203
Niced 161 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
btw..the only reason I commented like I did was because of your earlier post witch made it sound like you were a bit depressed about the current state of events:

"It's like I can't play disc golf anymore, like I have absolutely no confidence anymore, or even afraid to throw well. I thought all the thousands of messages of hate had not left their mark on me. I guess I was wrong."

That's why I said if you're in it for the competition, go for it. Otherwise do something to get the social experience positive again. Something to overshadow any negativity you are experiencing. Sounds like you're doing all the above, but if you're still not having fun, then perhaps just playing a few solo rounds might help. That always helps me get back to the main reason I love this game. Just myself enjoying the outdoors and throwing some plastic.
More than depressed, it hurts, and I hate it.
I hate that people I don't know, who don't care whether they know me, feel the need to make me feel horrible about myself, indeed have that power over me.

The social aspect of disc golf for me is the positive feedback loop we get in, to push each other to a higher level of game.
That seems highly exclusive to gender-protected divisions.
To some extent, anyone on the fairway wants to win... But the road to rhat victory seems to be different between genders.

The competitive side of it is that I push myself to beat "me" (and for me, I measure that in round rating. Any round rating from -10 my current rating and above is "I tied or beat myself".
Reply With Quote
  #686  
Old 10-06-2019, 11:30 AM
Noill's Avatar
Noill Noill is offline
*Administrator*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Years Playing: 10.7
Courses Played: 133
Posts: 5,141
Niced 781 Times in 412 Posts
Default

(((gingerandhoney)))

One online hug for you girl!

Reply With Quote
  #687  
Old 10-06-2019, 06:02 PM
McCready's Avatar
McCready McCready is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Georgia
Years Playing: 4.9
Courses Played: 53
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 676
Niced 396 Times in 153 Posts
Default

I will admit I need to understand this better, and neither side of the argument has fully convinced me. But right now I do have trouble believing that a biological male transitioning to female in adulthood doesn’t have a significant advantage due to bone & muscle density. I would like to understand if it can be reliably measured/quantified on an individual basis to remove all doubt. I suspect it wouldn’t change many opinions though, as both sides of the political divide are happy to deny science when it suits them.

I would like to see some large-sample, impartial, rigorous studies done on this, let them be subjected to peer review and debate, and if the scientific community can reach consensus, then let’s go with that. If it shows that certain M2F trans individuals have no advantage in gender-protected divisions despite being born male, I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong. Right now though, I think cis women probably have just cause to feel like it’s unfair, especially when someone newly transitioned comes in and completely dominates. The most egregious example is the trans powerlifter who destroyed the field and broke world records after living as a male into her 30’s. That can’t be seen as an enduring victory (either in that particular competition or the trans movement as a whole) when the majority of observers are going to question the legitimacy. I think that case ultimately harms the trans movement.

Until the science is settled though, I’m not going to spout off like my opinion is the truth and everyone else is an idiot. I don’t take it lightly that we would exclude someone from competition without a damn good reason. The answer isn’t to just deny all trans athletes a chance to compete without solid evidence; the burden of proof works both ways. Unfortunately as things stand now, I don’t think there is anything conclusive that can be implemented to satisfy all parties. And that puts trans athletes in a state of limbo, which is ultimately unfair in itself. And life is often unfair.

It should go without saying, but a statement like it’s “expected” to be “creeped out” by transgender people is about as ignorant as it gets. When that type of reaction is so typical, I admire anyone who is willing to stand up and fight, knowing the tidal wave of hatred and stupidity that’s coming. I hate to admit I’m the type that avoids confrontation and I probably couldn’t do it. I admire and respect LGBTQ folks for what they have to endure even in 2019 (or *especially* in 2019, unfortunately).


Last edited by McCready; 10-06-2019 at 06:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #688  
Old 10-06-2019, 07:11 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Utrecht, NL
Years Playing: 9.7
Courses Played: 67
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 203
Niced 161 Times in 73 Posts
Default

@Baked, short answer:

The IOC - and until further notice, they are the authority on the subject, AND they have the most to lose here - has been stating that testosterone level being low enough (IOC use <10nmol/, IAAF use < 5nmol/l for several of their events) for long enough (12+ months, uninterrupted) levels the playing field enough for there no longer being an advantage.

Just because you don't like (or aren't convinced "enough" of) their answer, doesn't make their research done and guidelines made any less authoritative.


Longer answer:
If you wanted to get ACTUAL numbers on how much that effect (starving the body of testosterone) is, the only way to reliably measure/quantify that would be to get all important physical and physiological stats on that person PRE and POST transition. Measuring how strong/stamina-ey/explosive/etc I - or any other transwoman - was before transition, and is post transition.

Comparing A MAN with A WOMAN (we'll take Paige Pierce and Paul McBeth, or a random FA1-level woman and a random MA1 man) makes as much sense as comparing Val Jenkins with Paige Pierce, or Jeremy Koling with Paul McBeth, or Jamie Mosier with Simon Lizotte.
Too many variables that would instantly throw ANY measurements out of the window.
And just doing basic measurements, like average male height vs average female height; and any other average value you can think of, you are NOT going to get any further.

In disc golf a comparison that DOES make more sense, is (we'll use my rating for now) putting 20 random women with a rating of 888 (all being propagators, and we'll say with 5+ years of registered sanctioned events, at least 5 per year) on a 20 random but varied courses and see who wins, and me being one of those 20. (ignore for a second there are currently only 11 women with an 888 rating)
If the arguments continuously being put forth would be valid; you should see me winning all or almost all of those 20 rounds.


POSSIBLY you could try to do a study on dizygotic twins where assigned sex at birth is not-identical (ie. one male, one female), but already then, circumstantial and environmental influences could invalidate research.
You'd need to keep both of them in a perfect social and environmental vacuum, separate from each other, to rule out external factors, and even THEN, you're going to have to account for motivation, drive, discipline, etc when getting them to perform physical tests and tasks.

Yes, an AVERAGE man would possibly be stronger/taller/heavier/xxx-er than an AVERAGE woman, but that is where the comparison ends.
Here's one dangerous word that you CANNOT ignore, if you were to go there. Ethnicity.
Do you want to go there? I hope not :P


analogy; ridiculously (I repeat RIDICULOUSLY) over-simplified, but it brings home the point on testosterone:
(car model being the skeleton/muscle structure, engine being the hormones building/running that structure)
man = Chevy Corvette, 6.2l engine 455bhp
women = Kia Soul, 1.6l engine 122bhp

Now take out the Corvette's engine and replace with the Kia's engine. Which is what happens when you remove testosterone and replace it with estrogen for long enough.
Yes, you'll have a cool & strong looking car on the outside, but will it run anywhere near what you'd expect it to?
No. Absolutely not.
Would it run faster than an original Kia Soul, possibly, and if so, it'll be marginally so; because the Kia's engine can only do so much.
And the better brakes, suspension, sure they COULD be making it run smoother than the standard Kia Soul resulting in a slightly higher speed, but the car parts' extra weight will also drag it down more, negating that perceived advantage again.
Reply With Quote
  #689  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:26 PM
McCready's Avatar
McCready McCready is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Georgia
Years Playing: 4.9
Courses Played: 53
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 676
Niced 396 Times in 153 Posts
Default

@gingerandhoney, point taken about the IOC having the authority to put any criteria they wish into practice. We cant conclude the science is settled though, until the results back it up. The weightlifter example is obviously problematic, wouldnt you agree? If that becomes the norm, then results are not going to be seen as legitimate. Once the sample size is large enough, one would expect a more or less equal distribution of performance, as is seen in the overall population a few standouts, a few that suck, and a bunch in the middle. If trans athletes greatly outperform the rest of the group, its going to become a farce. That was a key point I was trying to make, that you want to win fairly and you want it to be clear and (more or less) irrefutable that its fair. And dont get me wrong, Im actually hoping the results bear that out. I just dont think were there yet and the weightlifter issue is a red flag.

I press this even though Im essentially on your side here, because I fear this becoming another issue that gets decided by wokeness and cancel culture, which only serves to further radicalize the opposition. I REALLY dont like the results of that, in fact it scares the hell out of me. Look at the state of our politics, and it only shows signs of getting worse. Id much prefer to win these battles with truth and common sense, rather than shame and censorship. I applaud you for not resorting to that and I wish others would do the same.
Reply With Quote
 

  #690  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:41 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Utrecht, NL
Years Playing: 9.7
Courses Played: 67
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 203
Niced 161 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Yes, the weightlifter (I assume you are referring to Laurel Hubbard, but there's also Janae Kroc, so please don't use "the weight lifter"), can be seen as "problematic" by the people that want to see it as problematic.

But so (ie. "problematic") is/was Climo in disc golf, with a ridiculous positive monkey factor.
Or Michael Phelps in swimming
Quote:
"Several physical attributes particularly suit Phelps to swimming: his long, thin torso offers low drag; his arms span 6 feet 7 inches (201 cm)—disproportionate to his height of 6 feet 4 inches (193 cm)—and act as long, propulsive paddles; his relatively short legs lower drag, and perhaps add the speed enhancement of a hydrofoil; his size-14 feet provide the effect of flippers; and his hypermobile ankles can extend beyond the pointe of a ballet dancer, enabling him to whip his feet as if they were fins for maximum thrust through the water."
And then his genetic anomality, he produces far less lactic acid than average humans, has not even been taken into account.
Without that anomality, his total Olympic medal count would NOT hace been 28 (all-time high in the Olympics).
23 Olympic Gold, the #2 has 9.
28 Olympic medals, the #2 (same person as above, Larisa Latynina, a gymnast from the USSR) has 18.



They produce more glaringly red flags than transgender people do, from a performance level.

You want a larger sample size: Here is "a decent sample size of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transg...ople_in_sports ". And there are many more that are not even mentioned. How many of them are World Champion in their sport?
How many of them are "meaningful" World Champion in their sport? (ie. my title in FA40 is meaningless, a title in FPO isn't)

I am the first openly transgender World Champion in disc golf.
I am NOT the first openly transgender person in disc golf,
and I am possibly NOT EVEN the first transgender World Champion in disc golf. You don't know. I don't know.
But who gets the flak? yes, me. Because I am openly so. But am I a remarkable player? Not at all. Nowhere near. I got my Worlds invite for FA40, a division that is demonstrably poorly attended when it comes to players with high ratings.
In 2019, at the time of AmWorlds, there were 9 Am Women 39-49 years old with a rating of 850 or higher, 11 if you extend that to 39+), only 2 of them signed up for AmWorlds. I was the higest rated of them, Kerri #2 (8 ratings points apart at the time of sign up, me an 869, she an 861, ie. that is anyone's game, in disc golf). Tammy with her 836 at tournament start, the next-higest ranked in the division would (checking against today's ratings), be #17 highest ranked in the world.

For comparison, there are 38 women in the age group 39-49 currently classified as Pro.
Why is that MUCH higher than the Am counterpart (9:38)? Typically, Ams outweight Pros by a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio.
I say, that is because they choose to accept cash, and that way feed their possibilities to continue playing the sport.
I have not accepted cash in the past (but that needs to be further specified; I have never DENIED cash either; I jus tnever landed in a cahsing position at tournament's end), nor have I ever been Pro clsssified.
The events in FPO I had won leading up to AmWorlds, all of them had 0 payout. I have brought home trophies, though, and a box of chocolates. The only event I played in FPO prior to AmWorlds, was Berlin Open, I placed 6th, play line was 5th.

and back to suggestion to place random 888-rated women together....
I have brought it up multiple times, had I had "male advantage", I would NOT have finished 6th @ Berlin Open. I would have finished higher in that case. https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/39130#FPO
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
World Champion Paige Bjerkaas WITB 2019 SD86 Discs 13 05-10-2019 12:10 PM
2019 Bowling Green Amateur Championships tnmotorman Tournaments & Leagues 18 04-23-2019 08:57 AM
2019 PDGA Amateur Disc Golf World Championships Darkgreen Tournaments & Leagues 25 12-13-2017 04:44 PM
2010 Amateur World Championships SmoothSailor General Disc Golf Chat 12 07-10-2010 09:29 AM
2010 Amateur World Championships SmoothSailor Vacations & Road Trips 0 06-17-2010 12:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.