#21  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:39 PM
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I removed the reviews... if they have beef with the new ownership they can post it on the course wall here but the review area is for reviews of the course.
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  #22  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I am still confused as to whether or not the property is publicly owned.
Apparently the property is owned by "Jefferson County Open Space". Their web-page describes them as:

Jeffco Open Space was founded as a land conservation organization in 1972 by PLAN Jeffco and The League of Women Voters of Jefferson County. These organizations proposed a unique concept to the Board of County Commissioners to preserve the scenic vistas and open lands within the county using the collection of one-half of one percent tax on sales in Jefferson County to fund the program. The voters agreed, thereby ensuring perpetual land conservation, stewardship of open space and parklands, and access for public enjoyment.

Funded with a one-half of one percent sales tax, Jeffco Open Space contributes to city and park district projects, has preserved more than 54,000 acres, and manages 28 open space parks and more than 252 miles of trails in Jefferson County, Colorado. View the Jeffco Open Space park system map.


So while they are funded by a one-half percent sales tax, the owner does not appear to be public entity like a city or county.

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Old 05-16-2018, 06:51 PM
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I can see why the locals feel somewhat scorned. And it's possible that the new owners don't even realize how much they're biting the hand that feeds, in terms of free labor for course maintenance. Also, what other sources of revenue are opened up by not running the tournament? Are there other activities available on the property? Seems like you could get more greens fees by just charging the tournament participants, rather than keeping it open for casual play.

However, all that said, it's entirely within the owners' rights to NOT host a tournament on a specific weekend. Also their right to increase the course fee by **gasp!** a whopping $2. Not ideal for the club, but also not something over which I would personally want to burn any bridges. Also, just my opinion obviously, but the owners' post seemed very well reasoned and professional. Those two "reviews" did not. (Ok, they were not so much reviews as thinly veiled flaming.)

Looking at it through another lens: If the new owners' goal was to rid the course of a few whiners, then it seems like they succeeded!

[OK, that's a bit of a hot take. And like I said above, I can see it from the locals' point of view as well. Sucks to put in time & money, build that relationship with the owner...only to have it sold. It's like being a millionaire in the currency of a country that doesn't exist anymore.]

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Old 05-16-2018, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I am still confused as to whether or not the property is publicly owned.
I'm guessing the new folks came in and signed a contract to run the disc golf concession, probably the ziplines, too. The park itself is public county park land, as markmcc posted.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:18 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
People who are unwilling to pay $12/day (or, really any amount of money) to play a top-rated course are included in the number one problem in disc golf. By contrast, I used to pay about $5 to play a little, 9-hole municipal golf course in the 1980s (a roughly equivalent amount when inflation is factored in). No one complained about the price, not even my similarly poor student friends. But, one thing's for certain, the quality of player is certain to go up at Beaver Ranch.
I have to get a state park sticker about $25 a year if I am going to play the local nearby state park course a lot otherwise $5 per vehicle. That is worth it for more then just disc golf but they do a good portion of the maintenance of Mowing and tree stuff. Local Club raised part of the money, the extra to have the course use the blue version of the new Mach III othewise the desperate need of new baskets (look up Missouri River Flood 2011 and then look up Powerhouse Ally Pierre South Dakota) would be just the basic and the club putt in a Mach II basket with Tee Pad for a Practice hole that in the times the State disc golf tournament is in the area they use as a extra hole.

I get pay to play and I expect a certain level of course with a pay to play course as far as challenging, understand the way the course maintenance might not be 100% due to choice by the owner. At least the baskets should be in good condition and course should be playable. Now if it is on a Golf Course, the Disc golf better be great and if the golf course knows what they are doing have a disc golfer in charge of the disc golf course and sales of disc golf equipment their area.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:39 PM
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Martin Dewgarita Martin Dewgarita is offline
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For those looking for something to read. Taken off of facebook, foothill flyers page - the comments go on to be pretty good as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponto
I have an interesting perspective on the disc golf discussion that has intrigued many and made a lot of people express and feel anger, on both sides. Many of you know my history, some may know it partially. Others may be curious to know. I moved to Bailey, CO, where I reside today, in 2003. I founded Foothill Flyers Disc Golf Club, along with a group of close friends, in 2006. I served as the President until I retired a few years back. I also served on the board at Beaver Ranch for a period of roughly 4 years from 2012 – 2016. I served as Secretary a majority of that time. My responsibilities included, and of course not limited to, setting meeting agendas and recording meeting minutes.

Additionally, I am one of the founding architects of both Beaver Ranch Disc Golf Course as well as the Bailey Disc Golf Course. I also currently serve as a jack-of-all-trades board member for BOERA (Bailey Outdoor Education & Recreation Area), essentially serving as VP, Treasurer, and Secretary (let me know if you are interested in a seat at the table!), which is the group that governs the property where Bailey Disc Golf Course is located. I have served the last 12 years volunteering and donating my time and energy into making the 285 corridor a destination and a home.

FFDGC built the Beaver Ranch Disc Golf course. Make no mistake about it. FFDGC poured thousands of hours, blood, sweat, tears, and money into the course, and also maintained or assisted with maintenance of the property and the disc golf course for many years to follow.

Ben Ray is the current FFDGC club president. Late last week, he made a post where a portion of the post expressed some raw emotion and frustration. It’s been a very difficult last couple of months of discussion, delayed planning, and uncertainty.

In response, presumably Brad Hicks, the owner and operator of Beaver Ranch Disc Golf Club (I presume LLC, formerly known as Destination Disc, and the governing organization of the BR disc course and business) likewise had an emotional response. I will reference that response later to draw some distinctions between his feelings/thoughts and those of both my recollection and records of events related.

On or around the beginning of March, Ben consulted with me on this situation and the challenges he was having dealing with those related in the Beaver Ranch camp. I offered to assist him, given my unique perspective and background. He agreed we would work together to get an agreement in place with Beaver Ranch.

On March 8, Ben and I met with Brad Hicks and Jill Deem, current President of the Beaver Ranch board. This was in response to concerns of Beaver Ranch deciding that 3 days on the grounds for a tournament hosted by FFDGC would not be allowed. This had been communicated via Brad, by an employee of Beaver Ranch, Tom O’Connell. This caught Ben off guard as it was his understanding from conversations within the past year that this was approved and acceptable. Tom was out of the country and unable to attend the meeting, but it was made known that his involvement was important and no decisions would be made at this meeting.

Ben and I explained at this meeting the history of disc golf at Beaver Ranch. When I joined the Beaver Ranch board, Beaver Ranch (known then as Conifer Community Park at Beaver Ranch) was not in a great place. It had made it through its toughest years, but there was work to do and goals to be achieved. Donations collected for disc golf player fees were the leading source of revenue, and those collections continued to outnumber the previous year, year over year. Disc golf revenues far exceeded any other form of revenue generation associated with the grounds, including zipline and associated activities. FFDGC played a key roll throughout these years and years prior, from course improvements (like concrete tee pads in the mountains!) to raising funds/sponsorships for baskets, benches, and proper signage), to slash removal and fire mitigation (remember that nasty slash pile?!?!?).

At one point during my tenure serving on the Beaver Ranch board, it was agreed that Foothill Flyers Disc Golf Club would be granted 1 weekend a year to use the grounds to host a PDGA sanctioned Disc Golf tournament. At the peak of the relationship between FFDGC and Beaver Ranch, Beaver Ranch agreed to not only provide use of the main lodge for free, but also to sponsor the event with $1500 in cash!

Hopefully this provides you with some perspective. Lots has changed since then. FFDGC never expected terms similar to the past. What we were presented with was not anticipated either. We were told by Brad in no uncertain terms that there would be a requirement of $10/player round played plus $10,000 minimum prize requirement to be purchased for amateur awards. There was no room for negotiation, this was the starting and ending point. Additionally, Jill communicated to us that there would be a requirement to rent out the Main Lodge on Saturday evening, even if we didn’t intend to use the Lodge. The normal rate was something around $2300/day (I could be off a hundo or two) and that the rate could possibly be negotiable with FFDGC.

Brad also serves as (and I apologize if I have the title wrong or if the roll has changed or ended) as Events Coordinator at Beaver Ranch. Ben went on to argue that Beaver Ranch could still rent out the main lodge as they would normally. As is practice today, weddings and other events take place while disc golf operates, and disc golfers are required to park near the entrance in what is commonly known as the event field. We proposed that we could do the same, being respectful of others using the lodge and being clear of the grounds by 6-7p, with final tee times going off shortly after 2pm. This idea was well received and Brad agreed it was possible.

We agreed that a contract would need to be in place between FFDGC and Beaver Ranch, and subsequently between FFDGC and Beaver Ranch Disc Golf Course. No terms were final and a second meeting was agreed upon, this time involving Tom O’Connell. Ben and I walked away not happy but knew we still had another shot to negotiate and work out terms of a deal.

Later that evening, Jill Deem sent an email to Ben, myself, Tom, and Patrick (I believe Patrick is the current VP of the Beaver Ranch Board). An excerpt reads,

"A meeting needs to be scheduled when Tom O’Connell and Patrick Meyer return from being out of town.

During this meeting we can determine if a 3 day tournament will be feasible at Beaver Ranch and if so, determine what the contract will contain.

I understand evening meetings are best due to work schedules.

Will be in touch,
Sincerely,

Jill Deem
President, Beaver Ranch Park Board"

We were to have another meeting! It was agreed both in person and confirmed in the above email. Instead, this is what happened next:

On March 20, 12 days later, I followed up in email, asking Jill if there was any progress on when the meeting would take place. All others previously mentioned were cc’d.

On March 22, all previously mentioned received this email response from Tom O’Connell:

"Ponto,

Patrick Meyer, Brad and I met today. We conferenced in Ben and gave him numbers, etc. Consequently, no longer a need to meet.

We hope the proposal works for the flyers."

Within 1 hour of that email, Ben Ray responded with this to all:

"I still think there is a need for a meeting and more discussion on how we can have a tournament and you still be able to rent out the main lodge. We would be able to control the traffic much better than a normal day. Our last tee time will be at 2pm, so no disc golf traffic in after 130. Everyone is off the course by 7, so the wedding will have the whole parking lot well before dark. If we do another conference call can we schedule it with ponto?"

Tom’s response, which he purposely removed me from his response, read:

"Ben,
We don't think there's anything further to meet on as we will not be making a Main Lodge rental on that Saturday."

Tom and Beaver Ranch now denied Ben and myself a meeting A SECOND TIME in 1 day!!

4 days later and again, after no further response, on March 26, I sent this email to Jill with Ben cc’d:

"Jill,

I would like to discuss this process with you. Not only did we not have a meeting, Tom, Patrick, and Brad called Ben without warning while Ben was installing Solar Panels on a roof and apparently this conversation was used to determine how it would be handled? Not only was Ben caught off guard and not in agreement, I was entirely left out.

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  #27  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:40 PM
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Martin Dewgarita Martin Dewgarita is offline
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Continued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponto
It was my understanding that we were to have a meeting in person to discuss this and come to a resolution. Additionally, Tom has intentionally left me off of the below email chain (Ben only added me in for the last response).

I would appreciate a face-to-face meeting, as we were promised. I'm available tomorrow and Thursday after 530p."

That same day, Jill responded with this (and cc’d Tom, Patrick, and Brad):

"Hi Ponto,

The three-day Bloom tournament is not in alignment with our Beaver Ranch mission and direction going forward with the Master Plan for Beaver Ranch.

However, under the previously stated conditions discussed with Ben, we would grant the three-day tournament.

Tom O’Connell will represent the Beaver Ranch executive committee along with Brad Hicks of Beaver Ranch Disc Golf and they have the full support of the Beaver Ranch executive committee of the board.

You should receive an email from Tom O’Connell later today."

Later that day (as promised), an email came to all from Tom O’Connell:

"Ben and Dave,
The Beaver Ranch mission, in conjunction with the evolving Beaver Ranch Master Plan is to fairly provide recreation and amenities to the local general public in a methodology which is appeasing to all.

The Beaver Ranch Executive Committee does not believe that a 3 day Bloom Tournament with 150 players each day subscribes to that mission.

Beaver Ranch Park has been very appreciative of the fact that the Flyers built this disc golf course. When the Bloom was initiated, Beaver Ranch showed their support. In 2017 Beaver Ranch lessened support.

In an effort to reward those FFDGC members who participated in the course building, BRDGC LLC has extended to those members lifetime free playing passes. They are able to play free on a course they built in or near their own community.

For July 13, 14 and 15, 2018 we are willing for the Flyers to host a 3 day tournament .

The conditions as previously set are:
1) The Flyers work out payment for a gift card program with BRDGC LLC.
2) The Flyers have each tournament player pay $10.00 per person per day for course use or reach an agreement pertaining to 20 or so disc golf baskets.
3) The Flyers must pay a $1,500.00 park use fee to Beaver Ranch. Beaver Ranch will not be renting the Main Lodge during this weekend. It is simply too late to rent out.
4) The Bloom may have full use of the Main Lodge parking lot. Overflow parking is to be sent to the Event Field. Parking on any of the Beaver Ranch roads will be prohibited.
5) Vehicle restrictions: No trailers(except to deliver supplies), no RV's, no 5th wheel trailers, no pop-up camper trailers, no vehicles in excess of 20 feet in length, no vehicles which contain either a sink or a toilet are allowed past the Event Field. Restricted vehicles may be parked on the Event Field each of the 3 days during daylight hours. By dusk, all restricted vehicles must be removed from the Event Field.
6) The Flyers can reserve cabins and tent sites for their players. Cabins are $60.00 per night and tent sites are $20.00 per night. Accommodations must be reserved in advance as a singular, one paying group. Reservations must be paid full in advance and received by July 1, 2018.
7) A rental contract must be in place by June 15, 2018 with the 1st half money of $750.00. The balance needs to be complete by July 1, 2018.

Beaver Ranch is offering in lieu of the $1,500.00 park use fee, an agreement by the Flyers to arrange two working four hour sessions of 25 FFDGC members. These two working sessions would involve tasks such as removing slash, chipping slash, the spreading of mulch and / or other landscaping needs. We hope that the Flyers would be receptive of this proposal which would serve to make the course more attractive for the tournament.

Going forward, for the sake of the business model of BRDGC, the concessionaire, future Bloom tournaments would be limited to one playing day with that being scheduled in the 2nd half of October.

Should a meeting still be sought, I (representing the Beaver Ranch Executive Committee) and Brad Hicks (BRDGC) will be willing to meet. In this case, please send us a meeting agenda of topic points.

We do hope that the Flyers can appreciate the need of the BR Executive Committee to be true to the BRP mission.
Thank you."

To summarize the above exchanges, no respect. Tom avoided me at all costs. In conjunction with Patrick and Brad, they called Ben unannounced as he work on a roof installing solar panels and told Ben what was required (there was no negotiations). When Ben and myself both requested the meeting we were promised, we were denied.

8 days later, on March 30, Ben sent this email:

"Hello all,

We are still weighing our options for 2018. Tough news for the future but we wish the best for Beaver Ranch and its missions. In the mean time can we meet briefly to get the basket contract signed?

Thank you,"

There was NO RESPONSE to the above request.

On May 8, after much deliberation, attempted negotiations with other possible suitors (no more contact with Beaver Ranch) for a second course location, and more, Ben sent this email to the group:

"Hello all,

I haven't been able to find any sponsors willing to cover the cost (most of them are pretty upset about the situation because this event brought them business) and we are not willing to give up the rights to the baskets or work for $7 an hour. I think it is obvious that we have put in enough time into making that park a success that we don't deserve to be treated like this. I hope that we can still work together to have an event there in the future, but it is not going to work out in 2018. October is already full for us in 2018, but if you are interested id be willing to discuss a 2019 Beaver Ranch October event."

BRDGC’s response to Ben’s facebook post, although admittedly emotional, contained many untruth’s. Let me respond:

“This is unfortunate news to the BRDGC crew as we worked hard in crafting terms that would have been mutually beneficial to both FFDGC as well as BRDGC”

You are correct, BRDGC worked hard at crafting terms, and did not provide or allow a seat at the table to FFDGC. You are entirely incorrect to use the term, ‘mutually beneficial’.

“The previous Bloom in 2017 resulted in a substantial financial loss for BRDGC.”

I highly doubt it. Not to mention the increased traffic BRDGC received in the previous weeks leading up to the tournament as participants prepare. You refuse to lend credence to the traffic the tournament brings many days before the event takes place.

“In an effort to see that The Bloom happened with us this year we presented 3 varying deals to the FFDGC that would have resulted in the club paying absolutely NO MONEY out of pocket.”

I believe I have the ‘3 varying deals’ understood correctly as:

1. FFDGC agrees to have BRDGC charge the participants directly $10/player round, in addition to the players’ normal fees for playing the tournament. Additionally, FFDGC would be required to have $10,000 in prize monies guaranteed to BRDGC. On top of this, FFDGC would owe Beaver Ranch Park (not BRDGC) *$1500 for use of the main lodge (which FFDGC would not use and did not want).

2. FFDGC agrees to trade in the baskets to BRDGC for $250/basket, waiving the $10/player round fee. Additionally, FFDGC would be required to have $10,000 in prize monies guaranteed to BRDGC. On top of this, FFDGC would owe Beaver Ranch Park (not BRDGC) *$1500 for use of the main lodge.

3. Move the event to the end of October.

First, this is not negotiating. This is providing options, but no movement on costs/player/round or fees to rent the main lodge. FFDGC never had a seat at the table. Please understand, this is about respect and relationship, not all about the money.

Although it could be argued that FFDGC might not pay out of pocket, there was a SIGNIFICANT COST requirement for FFDGC to have to assume with less than 4 months until the event. Also, in years past, no fees were required for players, whether hidden under the guise of a fee charged by the course operator or direct through FFDGC. I can’t confirm whether this is true for 2017 but whatever the deal was, it wasn’t $10/player/round.

Then there’s option 2, which requires FFDGC give up ownership rights to the baskets, a significant asset, to offset the player fees. It’s a SIGNIFICANT COST to value and to give, it's not nothing! That's $5000 in value, if you value the baskets at $250. I value them at $275/basket.

Moving this year’s event to October was never an option, not this late in the game. And it wouldn’t be The Bloom then, it would be something different.

* Keep in mind, Beaver Ranch’s offer of FFDGC working off the $1500 fee to rent the main lodge equated to 25 Foothill Flyers @ 4hrs each, for 2 days, or 200 man hours!! That works to $7.50/hr wage!! Also keep in mind, FFDGC has done THOUSANDS of hours of work on the grounds already! And if FFDGC were not disrespected, they would gladly do that work for free!!

So there it is. Take it for what it’s worth. It’s all there for you to decide.

Beaver Ranch and Beaver Ranch Disc Golf Course are free to do what they want, to make demands as they see fit, and to choose to not allow for negotiations. Likewise, FFDGC, MHDGC, and others can choose to take their business and work effort elsewhere. It pains me to say it, given all I’ve (and many, many others have) put into it. In the meantime, I’ll choose to take my business elsewhere.

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Old 05-17-2018, 11:11 AM
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Noill Golf Noill Golf is offline
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That's a lot to digest... I don't get how the Bloom doesn't support the BR mission... I don't see this as being negotiated in good faith, which is probably the source of all frustration. Seemed like it could make some coin but the owners were so not interested
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:16 AM
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Thank you Martin. The issue here has NOTHING to do with ungrateful disc golfers not willing to pay to play. We have as many or more successful pay to play courses here than anywhere else. The issue is clear if you read the above post.

The club installed the course, still owns the baskets and has endlessly promoted it for years. The new owner is not a disc golfer and could care less about disc golf beyond the rather substantial profit he is making off of their labor of love.

He is actually "leasing" the operation of the course from the county somehow, we'll just wait until he bails and someone else will scoop it up.

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  #30  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:19 AM
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The club owns the baskets? I missed that, thanks for bringing it up
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