#2971  
Old 10-23-2020, 12:04 AM
txmxer txmxer is online now
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Iím not claiming to be an expert.

I only point out that all these so-called preventative measures like shutting down businesses in many countries are not having greater effects slowing down the spread than in some countries like Sweden which have not shut down businesses.

Iíd rather leave it up to business owners to decide whether or not to allow maskless customers in their establishments. Iíd rather parents have the option to have their kids at school or to learn virtually. In short, I support individuals making their own decisions instead of the government taking away our freedom of choice.

If Iím wrong, Iíll be dead rather quickly if you listen to the opinions of several posters here. Itís a chance Iím willing to take. This virus isnít as deadly as the 1918 influenza or the Black Plagues of the Middle Ages. The odds are in my favor-even if I catch the virus Iíve got well over a 99.9% chance of surviving it. Iím no expert but thatís pretty good odds.
Yay itís Mikey K!

You will survive so screw those that wonít!

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  #2972  
Old 10-23-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Iím not claiming to be an expert.

I only point out that all these so-called preventative measures like shutting down businesses in many countries are not having greater effects slowing down the spread than in some countries like Sweden which have not shut down businesses.

Iíd rather leave it up to business owners to decide whether or not to allow maskless customers in their establishments. Iíd rather parents have the option to have their kids at school or to learn virtually. In short, I support individuals making their own decisions instead of the government taking away our freedom of choice.

If Iím wrong, Iíll be dead rather quickly if you listen to the opinions of several posters here. Itís a chance Iím willing to take. This virus isnít as deadly as the 1918 influenza or the Black Plagues of the Middle Ages. The odds are in my favor-even if I catch the virus Iíve got well over a 99.9% chance of surviving it. Iím no expert but thatís pretty good odds.
If you are not an expert, why not listen to them. They are called scientists.

You don't have ANY idea what the term, nor concept, of freedom means. What is freedom of choice? Is that a Constitutional Amendment?

ďEducation is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.Ē Ė Will Durant

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  #2973  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:10 AM
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deadbody deadbody is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Iím not claiming to be an expert.

I only point out that all these so-called preventative measures like shutting down businesses in many countries are not having greater effects slowing down the spread than in some countries like Sweden which have not shut down businesses.

Iíd rather leave it up to business owners to decide whether or not to allow maskless customers in their establishments. Iíd rather parents have the option to have their kids at school or to learn virtually. In short, I support individuals making their own decisions instead of the government taking away our freedom of choice.

If Iím wrong, Iíll be dead rather quickly if you listen to the opinions of several posters here. Itís a chance Iím willing to take. This virus isnít as deadly as the 1918 influenza or the Black Plagues of the Middle Ages. The odds are in my favor-even if I catch the virus Iíve got well over a 99.9% chance of surviving it. Iím no expert but thatís pretty good odds.
So the teachers in your kids school don't get to make that choice? They have to be there in case you want to send your kids?

Or the people working at the store? hey just have to accept that people might want to come in without masks and risk getting them sick?

I'd accept your ideas if we had a robust social safety net. A way for employees to say "**** this it isn't safe" and not risk losing their house, or being unable to put food on the table. But we don't.

Your freedumbs end the moment they put someone else in danger. You don't have the freedumb to drive drunk, you don't have the freedumb to fire off guns in populated areas, etc... So you don't have the freedumb to risk other peoples lives cause you don't want to wear a ****ing mask.

Wear a mask. Socially distance yourself. Not because you are risking your life, but because you could be risking others.

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  #2974  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:33 AM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Iím not claiming to be an expert.

I only point out that all these so-called preventative measures like shutting down businesses in many countries are not having greater effects slowing down the spread than in some countries like Sweden which have not shut down businesses.

Iíd rather leave it up to business owners to decide whether or not to allow maskless customers in their establishments. Iíd rather parents have the option to have their kids at school or to learn virtually. In short, I support individuals making their own decisions instead of the government taking away our freedom of choice.

If Iím wrong, Iíll be dead rather quickly if you listen to the opinions of several posters here. Itís a chance Iím willing to take. This virus isnít as deadly as the 1918 influenza or the Black Plagues of the Middle Ages. The odds are in my favor-even if I catch the virus Iíve got well over a 99.9% chance of surviving it. Iím no expert but thatís pretty good odds.
I'm personally in agreement with most of that. However when I see false information I'm going to point it out, because couching the argument with false information merely makes it easier to dismiss.

Everyone likes to point out what we should've and could've done. Whether it's China, who took measures we couldn't possibly have, or Germany which took measures we should have but didn't. The U.S. is where it's at. None of the idealistic ideas are going to change that. We don't have the political or public will to stamp this thing out. We can't roll back the clock. At this point we have to figure out the best way to live with it that results in the least loss of life and least amount of economic damage. I think the best way to do that is look at examples like Sweden where this has always been the goal.

With what is known now, I think I can keep my family and myself safe through personal responsibility. I'm fine if you or anyone else wants to take their chances. If you want to get together with a bunch of people to watch the game, go for it. However there are a couple caveats. #1 If someone gets in a car wreck or has some other medical emergency they need to be able to go to the hospital. So you're gonna have to be willing to occasionally undergo restrictions if it's necessary for the healthcare system. #2 People have to go to the store and go to work and send their kids to school. If you're going to advocate for a personal responsibility model, people have to be safe doing essential things. Unless you're advocating for a massive government social safety net that will pay for people to not work and have their groceries delivered, then the only way to achieve this right now is with masks. It's fine if you're willing to take your 99.9% odds, it's not fine to force the old lady on the bus or your co-worker who might be taking care of an elderly relative.

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  #2975  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:06 AM
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ru4por ru4por is online now
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I'm personally in agreement with most of that. However when I see false information I'm going to point it out, because couching the argument with false information merely makes it easier to dismiss.

Everyone likes to point out what we should've and could've done. Whether it's China, who took measures we couldn't possibly have, or Germany which took measures we should have but didn't. The U.S. is where it's at. None of the idealistic ideas are going to change that. We don't have the political or public will to stamp this thing out. We can't roll back the clock. At this point we have to figure out the best way to live with it that results in the least loss of life and least amount of economic damage. I think the best way to do that is look at examples like Sweden where this has always been the goal.

With what is known now, I think I can keep my family and myself safe through personal responsibility. I'm fine if you or anyone else wants to take their chances. If you want to get together with a bunch of people to watch the game, go for it. However there are a couple caveats. #1 If someone gets in a car wreck or has some other medical emergency they need to be able to go to the hospital. So you're gonna have to be willing to occasionally undergo restrictions if it's necessary for the healthcare system. #2 People have to go to the store and go to work and send their kids to school. If you're going to advocate for a personal responsibility model, people have to be safe doing essential things. Unless you're advocating for a massive government social safety net that will pay for people to not work and have their groceries delivered, then the only way to achieve this right now is with masks. It's fine if you're willing to take your 99.9% odds, it's not fine to force the old lady on the bus or your co-worker who might be taking care of an elderly relative.
The problem is...first, Sweden is no better off and the comparison is apples and oranges.

Second, all those getting together to watch the game, will not show any personal responsibility moving forward. They will go shopping, go home to their families, send their now potentially infected kids to school. DGP, you understand the exponential factoring, but some may not. Like you, I fail to understand the simplest of sacrifice (mask, distance and staying home) to save lives. If someone cannot make these tiny adjustments in their lives to save others......????????????

The economy argument rings hollow to me. We can open up everything and I am still going to do none of it. I think I am likely in the majority. That save little, in terms of the business community.

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  #2976  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:24 AM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
The odds are in my favor-even if I catch the virus Iíve got well over a 99.9% chance of surviving it. Iím no expert but thatís pretty good odds.
You also have much higher odds (up to 15% of cases) of living with damaged lungs "pulmonary fibrosis" for the rest of your life. I guess that is worth it?

There is also the complication associated with blood clotting a blood vessels that can affect other organs such as your brain and/or heart.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/art-20490351

But hey its worth it go down to the pub and have a beer with your buddies.

Your argument is much like a Football players stating playing football won't kill me. Yet 30 years from now those same football player has an enormous risk of developing CTE. Which effects 99% of NFL players, 91% college and 21% of higher school players.

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  #2977  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:30 AM
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"...., all those getting together to watch the game, will not show any personal responsibility moving forward. They will go shopping, go home to their families, send their now potentially infected kids to school."

And that's the attitude and reasoning that has proliferated this mess. Yapping about "freedom" ... bunch of whiny "I don't want to" children.

Why not compare the US to Canada? Why always Sweden, how about your closest neighbour. I don't see that very often, from what I read in the Yahoo finance article "Why Canada Employment/Economy is recovering faster than USA"... you only need to multiply the numbers by 9 for population size. I will spot you 10x so the maths easier.

Currently the USA has more deaths than we have had cases

Our death count of 9500 x 10 is only 95000, which is half of the usa.

We broke a record yesterday 2700+ cases across Canada. X 10 is 27000 to USA's 70000 ish.


So what's the big difference between us?

We dont Bitch about wearing a mask! Over 88% of us think it is our duty to our country to at least do the minimum they've asked of us (and wash hands and 6ft).

I'm not saying things are all rosy over here with the cold weather and case counts climbing, but by listening to medical authorities and making an effort as a country we have potentially delayed the infection rates of this virus by 4-5 months... and look how much we've learned in that time about treatment options...


Last edited by ThrowaEnvy; 10-23-2020 at 11:35 AM.
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  #2978  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrowaEnvy View Post
"...., all those getting together to watch the game, will not show any personal responsibility moving forward. They will go shopping, go home to their families, send their now potentially infected kids to school."

And that's the attitude and reasoning that has proliferated this mess. Yapping about "freedom" ... bunch of whiny "I don't want to" children.

Why not compare the US to Canada? Why always Sweden, how about your closest neighbour. I don't see that very often, from what I read in the Yahoo finance article "Why Canada Employment/Economy is recovering faster than USA"... you only need to multiply the numbers by 9 for population size. I will spot you 10x so the maths easier.

Currently the USA has more deaths than we have had cases

Our death count of 9500 x 10 is only 95000, which is half of the usa.

We broke a record yesterday 2700+ cases across Canada. X 10 is 27000 to USA's 70000 ish.


So what's the big difference between us?

We dont Bitch about wearing a mask! Over 88% of us think it is our duty to our country to at least do the minimum they've asked of us (and wash hands and 6ft).

I'm not saying things are all rosy over here with the cold weather and case counts climbing, but by listening to medical authorities and making an effort as a country we have potentially delayed the infection rates of this virus by 4-5 months... and look how much we've learned in that time about treatment options...
It is a good question. The cultures are much more similar. But, population density would likely have a big impact. Though, looking at large Canadian cities in comparison to similar American cities would give some interesting data.

If you really want to squawk about freedoms and sacrifice, how is the disparity of infection rates, among the poor and black communities, not in the forefront of the discussion. That is where deniers like MikeK fail, in my book. It clearly demonstrates their only point of view is selfishness.

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  #2979  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ru4por View Post
It is a good question. The cultures are much more similar. But, population density would likely have a big impact. Though, looking at large Canadian cities in comparison to similar American cities would give some interesting data.

If you really want to squawk about freedoms and sacrifice, how is the disparity of infection rates, among the poor and black communities, not in the forefront of the discussion. That is where deniers like MikeK fail, in my book. It clearly demonstrates their only point of view is selfishness.
Yes, most of our increasing problems are in major cities but it's reached everywhere. Quebec and Ontario are especially bad due to major population centres, and Quebec being a "party" location.

Our "socialist" attitude and free healthcare also play a factor, we take slightly better care of our more vulnerable and poorer citizens.

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  #2980  
Old 10-23-2020, 12:05 PM
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I wish they'd honestly come out and declare their freedom to contribute to the spread of the virus, instead of characterizing it as their freedom to make their own health decisions.

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