#61  
Old 12-17-2016, 07:40 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Or let me put it in another way. What rule would you call me for violating, if you were to call it on me in a round?
That's the proper question.

In a round, I wouldn't be sure enough about the rule to be able to say that a violation has clearly occurred, so I wouldn't call it.

But, for the sake of criticizing the rules, what if I called the disc you placed under your back foot (off the lie) for better traction an illegal device? Could the TD find reason to enforce a penalty?

Quote:
801.03 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may directly assist in making a throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, or gauze) and medical items (such as knee or ankle braces). Placing an object as a directional aid is not allowed. An item such as a towel or a pad may be placed on the lie as long as it is not greater than one centimeter in thickness when compressed.
B. A device that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.
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  #62  
Old 12-18-2016, 03:44 PM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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How would you say that it is "directly assisting in making the throw"? At the most, it could be argued that it was indirectly assisting. Did you even read the rule you quoted?
I don't know why other people chose to do it, but I usually only do it If I'm wearing shorts and need to kneel on something rocky, so I would argue that it is to reduce abrasion to the skin on my knee. arguing that it is for better traction, doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, calling a disc, which is the primary element of the game an "artificial device" is stretching it, wouldn't you say?
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  #63  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:16 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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Since the surface area size of the pad isn't limited in the rule, I think a caddie could carry around a full size towel/tee pad less than 1 cm thick to place behind the lie for every tee and fairway shot. If the pad had a rough bottom, would be really good grippiness on slippery ice/snow in winter. That along with McCoy's clip-on clown shoe for extending your stance sideways from a tree could really provide good stance and traction under adverse situations.
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  #64  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:52 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
How would you say that it is "directly assisting in making the throw"? At the most, it could be argued that it was indirectly assisting. Did you even read the rule you quoted?
I don't know why other people chose to do it, but I usually only do it If I'm wearing shorts and need to kneel on something rocky, so I would argue that it is to reduce abrasion to the skin on my knee. arguing that it is for better traction, doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, calling a disc, which is the primary element of the game an "artificial device" is stretching it, wouldn't you say?
I don't know exactly where "directly" ends and "indirectly" begins, but it seems that if it lets you make a throw that you otherwise couldn't make (because of pain or fear of infection, maybe), it's directly. Even so, I would grant you the "reduce abrasion" exemption for kneeling on rocky ground.

But, what if you used a disc as a bridge so you could lean on a brushpile to reach around a tree?

Would it be different if you used a 4' by 8' plank of quarter-inch plywood to lay out on that brushpile while touching your lie with one finger of the other hand?

Why are the words "on the lie" in the rule if not to limit where things can be put on the ground?

I don't think the fact that it is a disc has anything to do with whether it is artificial or not. If I found some way of using a second disc to provide leverage to my forehand, that second disc would be an artificial device.
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  #65  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:59 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
How would you say that it is "directly assisting in making the throw"? At the most, it could be argued that it was indirectly assisting. Did you even read the rule you quoted?
It's directly assisting in making the throw. I'm not sure why you'd argue otherwise.

You're using it for assistance WHILE making a throw.

In golf it's a penalty for a player to have a caddie hold an umbrella over him while he taps in a putt. Same kind of thing here - it directly affects him playing the stroke, and it directly assists you in making the throw.

If it doesn't assist you in making the throw… why are you using it?

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
I don't know why other people chose to do it, but I usually only do it If I'm wearing shorts and need to kneel on something rocky, so I would argue that it is to reduce abrasion to the skin on my knee. arguing that it is for better traction, doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, calling a disc, which is the primary element of the game an "artificial device" is stretching it, wouldn't you say?
Discs are meant to be thrown, and though the list provided for abrasion resistance is not a complete list, kneeling or standing on a disc with your back knee is very different than the example items listed. The disc isn't serving its purpose (to be thrown), and it's man-made, so I could see it being an artificial device when not being thrown or used to mark the lie (or whatever).

The PDGA rules don't seem to define "artificial devices" specifically.
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  #66  
Old 12-19-2016, 04:03 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Golf rules are irrelevant, however, holding an umbrella is not "directly assisting" with making the putt. just because I'm using something while making a throw, doesn't mean it's assisting me. Especially not directly. I'm also wearing pants while throwing, but they are not assisting the throw, either directly on indirectly. I sometimes where sunglasses. They may be indirectly assisting me, because they help me see, but they are not directly assisting the throw, as they have no impact on the throwing motion. Same with kneeling on a disc. It has nothing to do with the throw, but is only a practical solution instead of removing debris from my stance, which I'm allowed to do.

If you want to call a disc an artificial device, if it's not being thrown, it would also be illegal holding a spare disc in your off hand while holing out for example. Some one have actually claimed that once, and we had a debate about that too. It's obviously ridiculous.

Why are the words "on the lie" in the rule if not to limit where things can be put on the ground?

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Why are the words "on the lie" in the rule if not to limit where things can be put on the ground?
Because it limits what you can use specifically "on the lie". It does not limit where you can put things on the ground. There is a rule that limits where you can put your equipment. It reads:
Quote:
F. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur.
As to whether or not it is allowed to place objects in such a way that you can take a stance that would otherwise not be possible, I can only give you my opinion, as it is not addressed in the rules. For an answer I defer to the RC.
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  #67  
Old 12-19-2016, 11:56 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Since the surface area size of the pad isn't limited in the rule, I think a caddie could carry around a full size towel/tee pad less than 1 cm thick to place behind the lie for every tee and fairway shot. If the pad had a rough bottom, would be really good grippiness on slippery ice/snow in winter. That along with McCoy's clip-on clown shoe for extending your stance sideways from a tree could really provide good stance and traction under adverse situations.
I've been in groups that do just that at Brookview Winter course, which has natural tee pads (mud or ice, depending on the temperature). Welcome mats, car floor mats, rubber pads, carpet, etc. Seemed legal to me. Because the whole teeing area is a lie, you could use as many as you need to cover it.

Wasn't there an April Fool's ad for a full-size portable rubber tee mat to use at every lie? Maybe they should seriously offer it.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Golf rules are irrelevant, however, holding an umbrella is not "directly assisting" with making the putt. just because I'm using something while making a throw, doesn't mean it's assisting me. Especially not directly.
Yes it is. I'm a (golf) rules official. You can read about it in rule "14-2" which is titled "ASSISTANCE IN MAKING STROKE."

So, I disagree - kneeling (your back knee) on a disc is directly assisting you in making a throw, IMO.

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
I'm also wearing pants while throwing, but they are not assisting the throw, either directly on indirectly. I sometimes where sunglasses.
Clothes are allowed.* You can use an umbrella when playing golf, too: you just can't have someone else hold it over you while making a stroke. You can't position a bag specifically to block the sun, either. (See 14-2/2.5)

Clothing is allowed, but still has to follow rules:

Quote:
4. Clothing (Rule 14-3)

Articles of clothing must not incorporate features:

- designed to assist the player with his alignment; or
- that might otherwise assist the player in making a stroke or in his play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
They may be indirectly assisting me, because they help me see, but they are not directly assisting the throw, as they have no impact on the throwing motion.
A player cannot put an alignment aid down, but you'd probably say those don't "directly assist you in the throw," right?

I would disagree. I say an alignment aid does directly assist you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Same with kneeling on a disc. It has nothing to do with the throw, but is only a practical solution instead of removing debris from my stance, which I'm allowed to do.
You're allowed to remove debris. So do that.

My reading of the rules is that you're not allowed to place your back knee on a disc. I think the cited rule would prevent you from doing so, and it directly assists you with the throw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Because it limits what you can use specifically "on the lie". It does not limit where you can put things on the ground.
Unfortunately the rules of disc golf don't seem to define "equipment."

I disagree that you can use a disc under your back knee. What's to stop you from stacking up a bunch of discs to keep your back foot out of some mud, or some water? Or your bag, or other things you deem to be "equipment"?
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  #69  
Old 12-20-2016, 02:54 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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As I said, Golf rules are irrelevant, and I don't know them. I would think the umbrella thing has more to do with a caddie not assisting, than the umbrella. Either way, what the rules of golf says don't matter. Same goes for clothes.

And you are right, that you cannot use directional aides. That's because the rules explicitly state that. I don't know what that has to do with my point about sunglasses though?

I see nothing in the rulebook to stop me from putting my back foot on my bag or a stack of my discs, as long as I still make contact with my lie. In any case I would suspect that would hinder my throw more than assist me in making it.

I find it really, really strange that people are arguing that it's OK to put a disc on the lie, something that is literally disallowed in the rules, while arguing that you cannot use a disc under a supporting point not on the lie, which there is no mention of in the rules at all. Are you then not allowed to use a towel or pad less than 1 cm in thickness anywhere else than the lie? That's going to create problems, because the lie is a line with no width, so anything you put there, is also going to be somewhere else.

And why would you need a definition of "Equipment"? Do you think there is any gray area at all in what constitutes a players equipment?
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  #70  
Old 12-20-2016, 11:06 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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OK, I think we've chewed up and spit out the existing rule and found it to be less than 100% clear.

What SHOULD the rule be?

I don't think it is in keeping with the general theme of the game to be playing from anything other than the playing surface. In my opinion, placing a towel (or anything else) on the lie (or anywhere else) to provide a nicer place to put a supporting point should not be allowed.

I could go along with an exception for tee pads. Tees are already artificial and supposed to be "nice". You can clear them, so I could see allowing something to provide traction on the tee pad.

But, on the fairway you should have to deal with where you threw it. Or, take a re-throw or optional relief if you don't want to cut your knee open.
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