#11  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:51 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The main thing that's required for an island hole to be approved is marking a drop zone within about 50 ft of the IB green where players may move to the first time they land in the OB area surrounding the green. Here's what's happened the handful of times when an unapproved island hole design, that would not have been approved, was reported to the PDGA by players after the event. The TD had to remove scores thrown on that hole (this has always been after the event so far) and report new 17-hole totals for each player to be used for ratings. Not sure what disciplinary action was taken if any. Suggest telling the TD you'll likely be reporting the lack of waiver to the Tour Manager unless TD gets one.
This particular island hole might be one that would be approved. If you don't make the island, you rethrow from a drop zone but do not have to make the island when throwing from the drop zone.

After reviewing the OB pamphlet fo rthe tourney again, I noticed another, de facto, island. I.e., you have to make it across a sidewalk. There are no OB restrictions, however, since you are throwing from OB, from where do you take your next throw if your throw doesn't make it onto to the island? Re-tee?
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:59 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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That's an example of a wrinkle in the system. In the first case, you're right that it would probably be approved, assuming the drop zone is forward of the tee. No re-throw involved. Though if options are limited to the drop zone, it still needs a waiver.

The second would be legal, because options are restricted. You can re-tee, or take it where it went out, even though they may amount to the same thing. The PDGA isn't trying to regulate course design, just rules exceptions. (In my opinion it's a mistake, but that's the principle behind it).

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Old 09-27-2019, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
The main thing that's required for an island hole to be approved is marking a drop zone within about 50 ft of the IB green where players may move to the first time they land in the OB area surrounding the green. Here's what's happened the handful of times when an unapproved island hole design, that would not have been approved, was reported to the PDGA by players after the event. The TD had to remove scores thrown on that hole (this has always been after the event so far) and report new 17-hole totals for each player to be used for ratings. Not sure what disciplinary action was taken if any. Suggest telling the TD you'll likely be reporting the lack of waiver to the Tour Manager unless TD gets one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Presumably, you're talking about a mandatory drop zone or re-throw, since the island hole itself doesn't require approval.

Among the options are filing a post-tournament complaint---the PDGA makes that easy---or gritting your teeth and going along with the TD's decision or, of course, not playing in the tournament.
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Island holes in and of themselves do not require a waiver. The waiver is only required if the OB options are restricted.
Chuck could you confirm that an island hole by itself does not need a waiver? I was under the impression that only if the TD limits the options once you go OB is the waiver required. As other also seem to believe.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:56 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiac View Post
Chuck could you confirm that an island hole by itself does not need a waiver? I was under the impression that only if the TD limits the options once you go OB is the waiver required. As other also seem to believe.
I suspect there's a semantic divide here, through no fault of anyone involved.

Some folks hear/say "island hole" and immediately assume it means limited OB options. Specifically, that "island hole" means that last in-bounds doesn't exist on the island itself and thus OB options are limited. Somewhere along the line this shorthand became too common, but it's lazy and it leads to nothing but confusion. And I think that's what Chuck is referencing.

It would be far better if everyone worked on the premise that "island hole" simply meant the basket/green was surrounded by OB with no caveats or fine print. I've played more than one tournament where the TD said "the green plays as an island" with no further explanation and assumed people knew he meant that you couldn't mark last in-bounds on the green itself and/or you had to go to a drop zone. Without fail, someone always got it wrong because they missed the unspoken implications.

Detail is important. TDs need to make everything plain and obvious. If it's not in the official rule book, it needs to be spelled out in detail every time it's used in an event. That goes for "island greens" or any other rules variant, no matter how many years in a row the rule has been in place.

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Old 09-27-2019, 10:00 AM
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While an island hole with no restrictions on OB marking can be created without waiver, that design is likely not best practice. The reason island holes with a required drop zone came about was eliminating the need for the group to determine whether a drive barely flew over the inbounds area of the green before going OB. This issue came into focus with hole 17 at the USDGC in the early 2000s. Limiting marking to a drop zone or optional re-throw eliminates the "flew over IB or not" judgment call from the tee. Since "requiring the drop zone" restricts the "last point IB marking" option, a waiver is required.

Ideally, the PDGA would eventually figure out some way to grant an ongoing waiver for an island hole design that is on a permanent course so TDs don't need to get a waiver for each event. But it's unclear how to officially identify or control permanent waivers since TDs can change the posted rules on a hole as they desire for their tournaments even if it goes against best design practice.

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Last edited by Cgkdisc; 09-27-2019 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
I have an upcoming tournament where a newish TD has constructed an Island Hole but hasn't gotten approval by the Tour Manager (and refuses to do so after I mentioned that approval was necessary). The island hole is probably fine, but this made me wonder a bit about such a situation and how to call a disc that lands off the island if you know that the TM didn't approve the island hole.
So then back to the OP the TD does not require a waiver unless he is limiting the options once a disc is OB. Is the TD limiting options? Is the drop zone forced or can you play it where it last was IB as well?

Last edited by kenjiac; 09-27-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:54 AM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
While an island hole with no restrictions on OB marking can be created without waiver, that design is likely not best practice. The reason island holes with a required drop zone came about was eliminating the need for the group to determine whether a drive barely flew over the inbounds area of the green before going OB.
This is the problem with the waiver system. Requiring a drop zone would be best practice, but to do so requires a waiver. One shouldn't need to go through the waiver process to be following best practice.
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  #18  
Old 09-27-2019, 11:55 AM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiac View Post
So then back to the OP the TD does not require a waiver unless he is limiting the options once a disc is OB. Is the TD limiting options? Is the drop zone forced or can you play it where it last was IB as well?
If you do not land on the island, you must throw from a drop zone. So, yes, the TD is limiting the OB options. It's probably acceptable, but not officially approved by the TM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:31 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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The important take-away is: As a player, always follow the Director's rules. Players have no power to cancel or modify them, even if the TD didn't get a waiver.

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  #20  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:49 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
This is the problem with the waiver system. Requiring a drop zone would be best practice, but to do so requires a waiver. One shouldn't need to go through the waiver process to be following best practice.
The snag in a default drop zone design without waiver is TDs have called the Drop Zone the tee or marked one just 5 ft in front of the tee to technically meet a best practices island design guideline but not in spirit.

It's a similar problem with the mando rule where the RC had unintended consequences when they eliminated the default drop zone near the mando in previous rule books and allowed the default DZ to be the previous lie if TD did not mark one by the mando. This made mandos initially the equivalent of a 2-shot penalty without the TD marking a DZ by the mando. I'm not sure a waiver is required for TDs to design tournament mandos but one should be required to confirm a DZ located by the mando in the same way the island hole waiver is currently required.
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