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Old 03-25-2017, 01:20 PM
Blaaaake77 Blaaaake77 is offline
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Default P2P courses in the United States

Hi everyone, I am working on a course proposal plan for a possible new course in the up and coming future. I am looking to find some information on P2P courses in the US. I was browsing the courses on here and was looking to find a way to narrow my search to just P2P courses. Does anyone know how many P2P courses there are and how many by state? I would like this information for my market analysis of my proposal. Any information helps, I appreciate it and hope to keep you guys updated in the near future if all goes as planned!

- Blake
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:35 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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By comparing the total number of courses with the "show pay to play" button turned on vs off, you can find that there are 810 pay to play courses in the US (5938 - 5128), and 977 in the world, and 24 in MN.
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:47 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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However, there's no button that indicates how many are actually bringing in enough income to offset amortized capital costs and operating expenses, especially when imputed labor cost is fully accounted for.
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:49 PM
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tallpaul tallpaul is offline
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^^^^^Nearly zero.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:07 PM
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Standalone P2P operations built from scratch, meaning you're going to buy the land near a decent sized metro area, carve out the course on interesting terrain, buy the targets and signs, pour hard surface pads, build the parking lot and pro shop, are unlikely to be profitable for the amount of traffic you can expect in relation to what you'll decide to charge and income from sales and rentals in the pro shop. I think we're still in the phase where P2P only works financially when it's built as an add-on to an existing operation/facility where any combination of the following are part of the mix such as the land is already owned privately or publicly, the owner has the equipment and capability to build the course, facilities and parking already there, staff already employed onsite can be deployed to also run and maintain the additional disc golf operation and promoting the disc golf operation can easily be added to existing facility promotional efforts.

But maybe you'll find some in your research that have been able to pull it off. That would be a good sign for the growth of the sport.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:51 PM
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Countchunkula Countchunkula is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
However, there's no button that indicates how many are actually bringing in enough income to offset amortized capital costs and operating expenses, especially when imputed labor cost is fully accounted for.

The only way I can think of to offset the land cost would be to sell home sites along the perimeter of the course. Not sure if you could price them low enough to attract interest while also raising enough capital to offset the land cost though.

The purchase cost of the land isn't amortized though. Only the cost of any improvements.

Since the cost of the land is by far the biggest cost (barring building a luxury clubhouse), I could see a P2P possibly turning a profit. You could monkey around with the useful life of your improvements to spread them over a few decades. Or depreciate them over 3 years and potentially turn a profit in year 4.

But at the end of the day, if you are looking to make money a disc golf course is a lousy investment.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:57 PM
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While land doesn't depreciate in value, you still have to have the money to buy it or lease it. In theory, it will go up in value. But you'll still be paying property taxes which will be higher the closer your site is to the disc golf population.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:19 PM
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Countchunkula Countchunkula is offline
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Totally agree with you Chuck.

My point was that with some accounting trickery, you could potentially show a profit.

Using a measure like ROI (return on investment) would include the cost of the land and almost certainly show that it was a lousy investment.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:39 PM
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I don't see anything in the O.P. that requires a course to pay for itself by disc golf alone.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:47 PM
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There are, of course, all sorts of thresholds as to which expenses the disc golf income needs to cover, to be worthwhile.

I'm not sure what the number of pay-to-play courses will mean in this proposal, since they vary greatly in income, and need for that income.

But Steve West's explanation of how to generate that number will do the trick.
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