#71  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:21 AM
Suspect Suspect is offline
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Originally Posted by zontar View Post
agreed. but I sorta like getting f'n lucky when it drives someone else nuts, too....
Well, lucky kicks or pulling a shot out of my ass is one thing.....as long as I improve haha
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  #72  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:37 AM
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aphilso1 aphilso1 is online now
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So to summarize the last 7+ pages, the individual blasting the community's collective intelligence is the same person who doesn't understand the concept of intrinsic value. Ironic, no?
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  #73  
Old 07-10-2019, 07:34 PM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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So to summarize the last 7+ pages, the individual blasting the community's collective intelligence is the same person who doesn't understand the concept of intrinsic value. Ironic, no?
No not really. Of course that isn't what's happening here. I think I only insulted one individual's intelligence.

Intrinsic is a word that only gets (mis)used in desperation. It's a less embarrassing way to say inexplicable. In fact, it allows you to insult anyone who admits they don't understand something without understanding it yourself.

Dirt has intrinsic value. Tomatoes do too. And jokes. And work. All of these values are recognizable and explainable. If competition has intrinsic value, it can be explained, illustrated, and to some degree, measured. That's where I'm struggling.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:07 PM
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aphilso1 aphilso1 is online now
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No not really. Of course that isn't what's happening here. I think I only insulted one individual's intelligence.

Intrinsic is a word that only gets (mis)used in desperation. It's a less embarrassing way to say inexplicable. In fact, it allows you to insult anyone who admits they don't understand something without understanding it yourself.

Dirt has intrinsic value. Tomatoes do too. And jokes. And work. All of these values are recognizable and explainable. If competition has intrinsic value, it can be explained, illustrated, and to some degree, measured. That's where I'm struggling.
Dirt and tomatoes are both of instrumental value, not intrinsic. They provide utility (sustenance) but are not things that have a value in and of themselves. Their value lies in the greater good that they produce when manipulated or consumed in some way.

Jokes, however, are a good example of intrinsic value. They provide pleasure and joy in and of themselves. Work has value that is both instrumental (increased GDP) and intrinsic (increased self-worth).

Competitive leisure is indeed intrinsically valuable. But really there's no need to caveat "competitive leisure" at all, because leisure is intrinsically valuable regardless of if it's competitive or not. You've wrapped your head around the wrong part of the mental problem, because while competition can have instrumental value (wargaming, for example), leisure's value is in and of itself.

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Old 07-11-2019, 04:04 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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Dirt and tomatoes are both of instrumental value, not intrinsic. They provide utility (sustenance) but are not things that have a value in and of themselves. Their value lies in the greater good that they produce when manipulated or consumed in some way.

Jokes, however, are a good example of intrinsic value. They provide pleasure and joy in and of themselves. Work has value that is both instrumental (increased GDP) and intrinsic (increased self-worth).

Competitive leisure is indeed intrinsically valuable. But really there's no need to caveat "competitive leisure" at all, because leisure is intrinsically valuable regardless of if it's competitive or not. You've wrapped your head around the wrong part of the mental problem, because while competition can have instrumental value (wargaming, for example), leisure's value is in and of itself.


Instrumental and intrinsic are not mutually exclusive. In fact, there is very little if any difference between the two. Every intrinsic value is also instrumental (unless you're using some specialized jargon I'm not familiar with). Again, "in and of itself" is only a way to say "it is because it is."

I appreciate your thoughtful post but let me try to illustrate what I mean. The practical value of dirt is intrinsic because it depends on the nature of dirt. Jokes only have value if they are manipulated or consumed in some way. In fact, it could be said that dirt is much less of an "instrument" than a joke, since it is providing value constantly, no matter what, without any need for conscious manipulation, while a joke not only has a narrow scope (human) but is worthless unless used. Increased GDP and increased self-worth are equally concrete, practical (though neither is automatically intrinsic of work). Maybe I just can't understand the nuance of these words. That's not really important though, because either way, I want an explanation of competition's value, intrinsic or otherwise. Saying "it's intrinsic, don't you get it?" isn't really helpful.

I haven't tackled the wrong part of the problem because I'm not trying to understand leisure. I'm trying to understand competition.

Without being overdramatic, I believe I recognize several ways in which competition is negative or dangerous. I have always felt that way, but unthinkingly ignored those negatives because I assumed they didn't apply to me or were outweighed by positives. I was never super-competitive to begin with, but once I started studying the effects of economic competition I recognized some similarities to sport and games. Also, in the process of increasing some various skills, I found myself often being a "winner" when I had been a "loser" or "contender". This was not rewarding to me, so I began to doubt the value of a system based on striving for something that is not worth striving for.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:23 AM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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I see guys on here play both sides of the fence. They claim they are playing it for a competitive activity, but when they get their asses kicked they play the "its a social game, what is wrong with that guy card (Looking at you, Ru4por).

Some people play it strictly as a recreational activity, some play it as a competitive game, and most play it somewhere in between.

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Old 07-11-2019, 10:02 AM
curmudgeonDwindle curmudgeonDwindle is offline
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"Conan, what is best in life?"

I myself am often willfully obtuse and have played the game of asking for advice/opinions only to 'discount' them when offered.

There is no mystery here OP and life is not a campfire sing-a-long, no matter the padding in your cell. You already know these answers, perhaps wishing the truth were untrue. Look in the mirror and clean away your mental grease and grime. You are very fortunate to live in a place/time where there are many games to play and where conditions are not so extreme, allowing you to consider the windmills of your mind in your spare time...

OR in the immortal words of the almighty GWAR: "rid yourself of all the worthless crap in which you wallow - here's an iron fist of death for you to swallow"

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Old 07-11-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
Instrumental and intrinsic are not mutually exclusive. In fact, there is very little if any difference between the two. Every intrinsic value is also instrumental (unless you're using some specialized jargon I'm not familiar with). Again, "in and of itself" is only a way to say "it is because it is."

I appreciate your thoughtful post but let me try to illustrate what I mean. The practical value of dirt is intrinsic because it depends on the nature of dirt. Jokes only have value if they are manipulated or consumed in some way. In fact, it could be said that dirt is much less of an "instrument" than a joke, since it is providing value constantly, no matter what, without any need for conscious manipulation, while a joke not only has a narrow scope (human) but is worthless unless used. Increased GDP and increased self-worth are equally concrete, practical (though neither is automatically intrinsic of work). Maybe I just can't understand the nuance of these words. That's not really important though, because either way, I want an explanation of competition's value, intrinsic or otherwise. Saying "it's intrinsic, don't you get it?" isn't really helpful.

I haven't tackled the wrong part of the problem because I'm not trying to understand leisure. I'm trying to understand competition.

Without being overdramatic, I believe I recognize several ways in which competition is negative or dangerous. I have always felt that way, but unthinkingly ignored those negatives because I assumed they didn't apply to me or were outweighed by positives. I was never super-competitive to begin with, but once I started studying the effects of economic competition I recognized some similarities to sport and games. Also, in the process of increasing some various skills, I found myself often being a "winner" when I had been a "loser" or "contender". This was not rewarding to me, so I began to doubt the value of a system based on striving for something that is not worth striving for.
Agreed that intrinsic and instrumental value are not mutually exclusive. I stated as such above with regards to the value of work.
Your views are not unique. They are shared by some very intelligent philosophers (Korsgaard and Dewy, for example), but frankly that line of thinking has always seemed intentionally ignorant to me. And I don’t mean ignorant as in uneducated, I mean it as in ignoring what is readily apparent and overwhelmingly accepted, but unprovable.
Joy is good. Self-efficacy is good. Pleasure is good. But regardless of how hard people try, they can’t “prove” that they are. Items and activities that are intrinsically valuable have a direct connection to good. A sunset or sunrise, for example. While there is indeed an instrumental value as well (warming or cooling the earth), most people would readily agree that the beauty of a sunrise is valuable for its own merit. If you’re in the Dewey camp, then I recognize there is no way to convince you of this. But again, my opinion is that that is just willful ignorance.
Competitive leisure is intrinsically valuable in the same way that a picture of a deceased relative is. To someone who enjoys it for its own sake, it is good. But to someone who doesn’t, it’s not. You can look at a picture of a deceased grandmother and receive joy; if I look at your grandmother’s picture I won’t. That doesn’t make the picture any less intrinsically valuable, just because I don’t appreciate it. But it does mean that I personally won't keep a picture of your grandma in my house. And just because you don’t enjoy competitive leisure, doesn’t mean that others don’t enjoy it. But it does mean that you probably shouldn't waste your time pursuing it.

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  #79  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:03 PM
Geer_Boggles Geer_Boggles is offline
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Explain the right function of competition in recreation. It seems clear that competition serves different purposes, for example biological competition existing as a law of supply and demand serves to equalize and harmonize, while competition as an economic principle serves to disintegrate and divide. I cannot come to any solid conclusion about the need for, purpose, or propriety of competition as a form of leisure. Is it a diseased extention of our national religion of ego-materialism? Is it a useful cultural process?
Just wanted to check in with you and remind you that it is not a competition for smoking the most pot prior to a post.
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  #80  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:09 PM
Geer_Boggles Geer_Boggles is offline
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To actually chime in on the discussion though, competition for the sake of competition is not so hard to comprehend. There are those who have a love for competing while knowing victory is all but impossible. It is a reason to strive to be better and to do better vs. just playing against yourself.

Have you never felt the need to be better at something or prove to yourself you are not the worst at something? Regardless of the activity, that is a competition in the form of "leisure" as you put it.
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