#91  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:19 AM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by rodney5756 View Post
What about the effect these player packs have on growing the TD scene? I've thought about running a tourney but it's just so much with the packs and everything... but at the same time I want people to show up!
It's daunting to lay out all that cash and then wonder if people are going to show or not. If I was a vendor and had an outlet to unload it other than an event, it would be fine. If I had a club footing the bill and then unloading the leftovers, less fine but still OK. To just be a guy trying to make something happen? Can't do it, it risks too much cash. "Sorry, kids. Either go on a diet or learn to digest dri-fit shirts."
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  #92  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:29 AM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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I tried it. Our local core of players said $15 to play for trophies was a rip-off and demanded to know "where our money is going." Uh, the park department was taking 20% off the top for administrative fees. Trophies aren't free. Once you hit the break even point, the rest of the money goes into the general fund and pays for stuff like mowing. "That's bull****, they have to mow the park anyway! We shouldn't pay for that!" It was very much a penny for penny accounting for their money and if 100% of it wasn't coming back to them, they would not play.

So I guess it depends on where you are.

You have the advantage of being on private land so the money ending up in the hands of the evil local government isn't an issue for you. It's a problem I run into whenever I try to do anything.
How recently did you try it though? IMO the mindset of the player base is not the same as it was 10-15 years ago. A lot of the old school nickel and dimers have aged out. I also have the distinct advantage of not giving a crap if some players don't like how I run things and choose not to show up. Only 3 of the 5 cheapie events were on private courses.

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  #93  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:22 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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How recently did you try it though?
January? Maybe it was February. I try it at least once a year because I think it should work. I think 22 is the most players I ever have had. I ran an event with three once. The Ice Bowl in 2018 was the last one that actually ran.

I had a doubles league that ran from 2010-2017. It was he same deal; $15 per player, winners got a couple of discs. It had 8-10 teams for a good while but then died, I ran the last league with two teams. The issue of what the City was doing with everyone's $15 got to be this big huge deal.

Again, I come from a background where I worked for municipal parks and recreation departments and I ran softball leagues, volleyball leagues, basketball leagues, soccer leagues, tennis leagues, etc. We also held tournaments and such. New flash: ALL of that stuff ran at a profit. ALL of it. If it broke even or ran at a deficit, I'd be fired. Hell, I ran a day camp at a profit. It was the job. The stuff that cost money and ran at a deficit were the big special events like Easter egg hunts that were free; if you were paying a fee it was a profit-generator. I ran a youth basketball program in Chicago that was a cash cow; we made an embarrassing amount of money off that, it more than covered my salary. Nobody ever asked me where their money was going. No one ever demanded that all the softball profits be used to improve the softball fields. The fees were what they were, you wanted to play or you didn't. Twelve years of parks and recreation work and there was one group of people who hassled me about where their money went.

That group? Disc golfers.

Hopefully that is changing. I'm not seeing it here, though.

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  #94  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:23 PM
TimSyl TimSyl is offline
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Originally Posted by Broken Shoulder View Post
I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend how anyone would want to TD a disc golf tournament at this point.
Great question. I TD a couple/few tournaments a year and EVERY year think "I'm not doing this again", and then, voila, the next year comes around. (Disc golfers and their expected rate of return for participating in an event continues to baffle me).

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  #95  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:37 PM
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scarpfish scarpfish is offline
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In all honesty, I never has an Am player had a problem with a TD taking the wholesale to retail markup made off of my entry fee and using that for pro added cash. The way I see it, the entry fee was $x, the value of the player's pack was $y, and the payout to my division was $z. As long as those met a reasonable standard, we're cool.

Where I might have a problem with this practice is as a member of the club putting on the event, taking in those potential profits, that could go towards building club assets, course improvements, or something that benefits everyone, instead using it as payout to people who quite possibly aren't club members and will take it out of town never to return.

If anything that is a disc golf issue has decreased my participation in tournaments, it is the rising cost...

compounded by the "been there, done that" factor where I have more tourney stamped discs, shirts and other shwag than I know what to do with...

compounded further by the fact that leagues offer the experience of competitive play without all that ancillary expense and preparation that comes with a tournament. Even factoring in the gas I spend for the extra trips, I can probably go to a league five times for the same money as a standard two round tournament. Every time I go, my score is reset to zero.

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  #96  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:47 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
How recently did you try it though? IMO the mindset of the player base is not the same as it was 10-15 years ago. A lot of the old school nickel and dimers have aged out. I also have the distinct advantage of not giving a crap if some players don't like how I run things and choose not to show up. Only 3 of the 5 cheapie events were on private courses.
I think even with a lot of "old school" nickel and dimers, a low cost event can still be popular and sell out. Around here, my competition when it comes to tournaments are two separate local non-sanctioned series that pay cash to all divisions and, on the PDGA side, a lot of relatively high priced B & C tiers where the player packs are getting more and more extravagant (e.g. $60 am entry for a C-tier...player pack including a disc, choice of stool/umbrella/hat/shirt, and miscellaneous swag plus script/funny money payout).

I run a low cost C-tier (am entry = $15) where each am gets a choice of disc as a player pack and the winners get trophies. It sells out each year. I also run a low cost B-tier (am entry = $25) where I hustle a bit more and the player pack is a bit bigger (this year = two custom discs, a custom tee shirt, and a $10 gift card to an online vendor). It is also trophies to the winners, no prizes. It sold out in an hour this year, now has a 40+ player waitlist, and it did so before I ever secured any sponsorship so all I was promising was one disc in the player pack.

And it's not like the players at my events have no cross-over with the ones at the non-sanctioned cash-to-all-divisions tournaments. They're mostly the same players. They enjoy competing no matter what the prize and they don't really complain about where their money goes (at least not loud enough that I hear it). Players are a bit more sophisticated and savvy these days. Or, they're just well trained that complaints of that nature are likely to fall on deaf ears anyway.

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  #97  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:10 PM
Guurn Guurn is offline
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I'm not sure I have ever seen a cheap AM tourney. If you think about any other individual sport ours looks ridiculous. I'd be cool with a 20 dollar entry and a t-shirt. I'd prefer it wasn't high tech, just cotton. The difference can go to paying the organizer and the trophy or whatever. Do people still want trophies? I could see a medallion or a disc wall hanger or something. Now and perhaps more importantly, about those 6 hour tourney rounds...

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  #98  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:35 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Or, they're just well trained that complaints of that nature are likely to fall on deaf ears anyway.
Yep, training them right is a huge part of it.
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  #99  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:38 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
January? Maybe it was February. I try it at least once a year because I think it should work. I think 22 is the most players I ever have had. I ran an event with three once. The Ice Bowl in 2018 was the last one that actually ran.

I had a doubles league that ran from 2010-2017. It was he same deal; $15 per player, winners got a couple of discs. It had 8-10 teams for a good while but then died, I ran the last league with two teams. The issue of what the City was doing with everyone's $15 got to be this big huge deal.

Again, I come from a background where I worked for municipal parks and recreation departments and I ran softball leagues, volleyball leagues, basketball leagues, soccer leagues, tennis leagues, etc. We also held tournaments and such. New flash: ALL of that stuff ran at a profit. ALL of it. If it broke even or ran at a deficit, I'd be fired. Hell, I ran a day camp at a profit. It was the job. The stuff that cost money and ran at a deficit were the big special events like Easter egg hunts that were free; if you were paying a fee it was a profit-generator. I ran a youth basketball program in Chicago that was a cash cow; we made an embarrassing amount of money off that, it more than covered my salary. Nobody ever asked me where their money was going. No one ever demanded that all the softball profits be used to improve the softball fields. The fees were what they were, you wanted to play or you didn't. Twelve years of parks and recreation work and there was one group of people who hassled me about where their money went.

That group? Disc golfers.

Hopefully that is changing. I'm not seeing it here, though.
I have seen an extensive change in it around here over the last 10 years or so. hopefully it will spread. The nickel and dimer model is unsustainable and drives good TD's out of the game.
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  #100  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:43 PM
JRW III JRW III is offline
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Originally Posted by scarpfish View Post
...Where I might have a problem with this practice is as a member of the club putting on the event, taking in those potential profits, that could go towards building club assets, course improvements, or something that benefits everyone, instead using it as payout to people who quite possibly aren't club members and will take it out of town never to return. ...
Yet that is where the current model is for most of the larger tournaments. Local clubs raises money, invests time, taps their sponsor base and at the end of the day, a touring pro comes in and takes the money not to return until next year.
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