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Old 12-23-2011, 09:19 PM
Oklahyzer Oklahyzer is offline
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Default Speed overstable vs. Shape overstable...?

Ok, first off, I hate "vs." titles and usually just skip right over those. But I'm really curious about this matchup. I read several searched results, but I didn't really see the answer I was looking for, so maybe someone can help me understand this one.

Recently I was dealing with headwinds strong enough to cause a Wraith to flip like crazy and do some pretty amazing things in the air, so I started looking for an overstable driver that would reach a bit farther than my Firebird. Picked up a used Max and a Teerex in good shape but I haven't had the chance to throw them in the same conditions yet. I have zero complaints about the Firebird, I just want to reach a bit farther in 20mph+ headwinds if possible. For reference, I'm comfortable with speed 9-ish drivers and realize that I don't have the skill to make my Wraith do what it can, although it does pretty well for me.

So....as I was reading several threads about the Max/Monster/Teerex, I saw it mentioned that they can get flippy in strong winds (with good power behind them), and that they weren't really truly overstable by design, but were instead speed-overstable. What does this mean exactly and how can you tell by looking at a disc? I've got a good feel for what beads and different profiles do for different discs, including the top of the wing and the dome, and about how power level affects a disc when thrown both over- and under-powered, but the more I thought about this particular thing the more I just couldn't understand it.

Is it something as simple as a bead and a strong concave/hooked wing profile with a blunt edge? Looking at overstable discs like the Whippet, Gator, Trident, Demon, Drone, and even the Teebird and Eagle, I can see similarities in design that show in flight with those discs...but then you have the Max/Monster/Teerex that have none of these qualities in shape. Someone please explain true overstable design vs. speed-overstable design. ??? Driving me nuts the last couple of weeks!
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:38 PM
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jongoff09 jongoff09 is offline
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A truly overstable mold won't flip in any headwind no matter who throws it. A speed-stable mold will appear to be overstable if it is thrown by someone that doesn't get it up to speed. Once a headwind is introduced, or someone that generally throws further throws a speed-stable mold, then it could flip.

I don't think that you can really tell by looking at a disc whether it is overstable. Some overstable molds seem to have a more blunt nose than stable and understable molds, but I don't know if that is always true. The best way IMO to figure that out is to find info about the disc on this site or on one of the flight charts or other websites.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that covers it.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:46 PM
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keltik keltik is offline
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Just buy a Z Predator, speed 9 and doesn't turn over in any wind.

but there are three main things that add stability to a driver. one is a blunt nose (think Trident/xXx). another is a notch, or the narrow flat part of the underside of the tip of the wing. The FB TB and EX all have this. and the third is a bead. But on drivers it is not the same as on putters or mids. It is more like a second wing tip pointing straight down. The Predator has this.

all of these shape features cause the disc to slow down earlier in the fight or add more resistance however you choose to view it. Some discs use combinations. The Whippet uses a notch and a blunt nose. The Gator uses a true bead and a blunt nose. usually the combination will include a blunt nose. although discs like the Cyclone (notch and bead) can be understable.

Most speed OS discs are this way because they have most of their weight on the rim of the disc. this adds more gyroscopic effect to the flight of the disc (sort of). but the gyroscopic effect requires that the cruising speed be reached along with appropriate amount of spin. once the disc loses speed then it fades of. Discs that are speed OS just need to be thrown faster or else they just fade off.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:03 PM
steve a steve a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keltik View Post
Just buy a Z Predator, speed 9 and doesn't turn over in any wind.
I bought a max weight one and threw it into the wind and it flipped. I traded it off shortly after that.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:42 PM
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ejvogie ejvogie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keltik View Post
Just buy a Z Predator, speed 9 and doesn't turn over in any wind.
Firebird is also speed nine, he's looking for something faster.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:44 PM
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UnitedPuppySlayer UnitedPuppySlayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongoff09 View Post
A truly overstable mold won't flip in any headwind no matter who throws it.
False, I had a pred flip over on me once. Lapants, smarkquart, deadbody, and steve west as my witness!
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:50 PM
JoshEpoo JoshEpoo is offline
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Every disc will behave erratically in really strong enough winds, and all discs will turnover if they're moving fast enough. The "good" wind fighting discs behave overstable at a really wide range of speeds, say 0-80mph, whereas a Wraith will act overstable up until maybe 55mph. The numbers are hypothetical, but the concept is there.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:00 AM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Physics wise, a headwind going over a disc makes the disc act like it's going faster than you threw it. Every disc has a certain cruising speed where it behaves most stably, go over that and if flips, fall short of that and if fades. So the "speed-stable" discs are usually just faster drivers that act overstable to all those failing to get them up to speed or encounter headwinds strong enough to simulate the speed necessary to flip the disc.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:00 AM
RichMeade RichMeade is offline
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FWIW... I had a similar dilemma and started using my Z-Flick backhanded...(typically used as my thumber/skip disk)

It's a rare occurrence when I pull it out...
but I throw it hard and low into a 20+ headwind and it'll soar..

(fyi...I'm not a power player...My average max D is around 350)
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:07 AM
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pspunch pspunch is offline
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just throw the E-HPP spirit. if you need more overstable than that, i'm not sure what to tell you.
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