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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 5 50.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 5 50.00%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 0 0%
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  #3241  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:23 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I disagree with the latter, due to the subjective nature of "errorless" you mention I the former. We have different views on what constitutes an "error". Neither necessarily right or wrong, just different.

If 38% of experts are getting a 2, and that's "errorless", then we're assuming that most experts make errors on most holes.
That just reinforces my point: "errorless" is completely subjective. I consider 38% to me more than enough, and you're assuming that most pros will make few errant shots. That's just us. I believe Jack Nicklas or some other top golfer said that every shot he hit was errant and he was just trying to minimize how errant. Clearly his definition of errorless is way more narrow than mine. Then look at Steve, he thinks errorless par should be 2 on #16 when 38% of players scored a birdie, but he thinks on #9 errorless par should be a 4 even though 40% of people scored a birdie.
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Last edited by DG_player; 07-20-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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  #3242  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:31 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I think "errorless" is needed to clarify that bad throws don't count. Here is a real scoring distribution from a hole at a big event where the top players were there.
If there are enough "bad" throws that they affect what the expected score of an expert is, why shouldn't they count?

It seems logical that if there are enough bad throws to change the expected score, then that particular throw would cease to be bad but instead would be expected.

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  #3243  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:56 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
No, just holes like this one. On some holes, most players will not make an error.

Note that even if most players make errorless throws most of the time, the errors can accumulate to where most of the scores include a throw that had an error.

I think "errorless" is needed to clarify that bad throws don't count. Here is a real scoring distribution from a hole at a big event where the top players were there.

1 0%
2 3%
3 40%
4 9%
5 21%
6 4%
7 12%
8 2%
9+ 10%


If "errorless" is not part of the definition, those 9+s are just as much a part of the discussion as the 2s.
I was referencing the philosophy that any throw that does not do what the player is capable of, is an error. That's a high bar for errorless. My bar would be lower, though I'm sure those 9+s would still be errors.

That's quite a messy hole you cited. Such donut-hole spreads---more 3s and 5s than 4s---are not only questionable hole design, because they have a disproportionate effect on the results, but they wreak havoc with par. No matter how you define or interpret it.
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  #3244  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:10 PM
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Hole 16 at Idlewild averaging 1.8 penalties per FPO and 1.2 per MPO player. Should that be considered to set par on the hole?
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  #3245  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Hole 16 at Idlewild averaging 1.8 penalties per FPO and 1.2 per MPO player. Should that be considered to set par on the hole?
If a penalty is expected?
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  #3246  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:56 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Is it errorless?

Are all the players experts?
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