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Old 01-18-2020, 12:50 PM
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Default Terminology Clarification

Hey DGCR family,
I think many users confuse the concept of stability versus neutrality and I'm one of them and I'm trying to clarify a few things.

Here is how I interpret the terms:

Neutral is how close to "ending where you aim" your disc will fly when thrown properly. It can fly straight and end straight like an Innova Mako3 or it can do a big S like an Innova Cobra, but it ends up in line with your aim. Back when Infinitediscs had a live chat, one of their helpers once told me that you can add the turn numbers and fade numbers and a negative number means it ends to your right (for RHBH), 0 means it ends straight, and a positive number means it ends to the left (for RHBH). So I interpret Turn+Fade=0 to be neutral. Is this a valid interpretation?

Okay, on to stability. A stable disc is one that holds the line you put it on because it fights both the natural inclination to turn over with a high rotational speed (and this gives it "HSS" or High Speed Stability) as well as the disc's natural inclination to precess (fade) as it slows (which gives it "LSS" or Low Speed Stability). Thus a "stable" disc should have both a low turn number, which should determine how much angular speed will cause the disc to deviate from neutral to the right and a low fade number which should determine how much the disc will deviate to the left as the angular speed approaches zero. But by going with this definition alone, only discs like the 0/0 mako should truly be "stable" and that's not the case, and hence my confusion with the term.

So to further muddy the language, Overstability and Understability are used.

As far as I understand, Overstable means a disc that really fights the turn (very high speed stable and thus a low turn number) but generally has a low value for low speed stability which is why it fades pretty hard and has a high fade number. This is why the faster airspeeds associated with either strong throws and/or headwinds allow for overstable discs to fly straight instead of turning over and they have a predictable fading finish.

Conversely, Understable enables slower angular speeds to turn the disc and thus have low high speed stability meaning a high turn number. I'm not really sure why high speed instability geometry would result in greater low speed stability, but generally, understable discs tend to have lower fade numbers which implies a greater amount of LSS or am I mistaken?

So finally, when we say "This disc is stable", are we talking about HSS? LSS? Both?

For example from Infinite Discs' website

Innova Cobra: 4/5/-2/2 rated: "stable"
Discraft Buzzz: 5/4/-1/1 rated: "stable"
Innova Shark: 4/4/0/2 rated: "overstable"
Daredevil Moose: 4/5/0/2 rated: "stable"
Discraft Rattler: 2/3/-1/1 rated: "overstable"
Discraft XL: 8/5/-1/2: rated "stable"


I like the buzzz because in my mind it is very stable. It holds straight, hyzer, and anhyzer lines very well. To me, that is stable. On the other hand, the cobra turns over immediately for me and though it does try to fade back, I would never call the cobra "stable", even if it might be "neutral".

So yeah, if you got this far, please chime in on what I must be misinterpreting. Thank you!
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:13 PM
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wolfmandragon wolfmandragon is offline
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Stable : holds the line when thrown clean.
Overstable: holds the line when thrown dirty or overspeed.
Understable: does not hold the line when thrown clean.

Fade does not directly apply to stability as there are understable disc with very strong fade..

The more angular velocity a disc has, the more stable it flies. Lids demonstrate this wonderfully.

A neutral disc is one where both the turn and the fade is 0, or very close
And
Neither has strong turn nor fade.
A S turn disc is not neutral even if the hss - lss is 0.
The Comet is a perfect example of a neutral disc.

Last edited by wolfmandragon; 01-18-2020 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:25 PM
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Edit window expired:

Technically it is angular momentum, not angular velocity, that adds stability. More angular velocity (spin) does give more angular momentum but so does having more weight forwards the edge of the disc (MVP overmolds and single shot lids are good examples)

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Old 01-18-2020, 02:39 PM
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dreadlock86 dreadlock86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobfish View Post
Neutral is how close to "ending where you aim" your disc will fly when thrown properly.
Is this a valid interpretation?
no

neutral means flies straight. it is not turn+fade=0
neutral means what you think stable means

Quote:
Okay, on to stability.

So finally, when we say "This disc is stable", are we talking about HSS? LSS? Both?
a lot of people are wrong on this. it's a common misunderstanding that overstable means turning left, stable means straight, and understable means turning right.

think of stability as a spectrum not 3 separate categories:

more stable <--------------------> less stable

if you wanted to put them in 3 categories, they would be overstable, neutral, understable

of course you have to clarify what people mean when they describe a disc because there is so much misunderstanding of these terms, even among very experienced players or pros. but properly understood, when someone says a disc is stable it means it is in the range of somewhat to very overstable. said another way, a stable disc is one where turn+fade= a positive number

Last edited by dreadlock86; 01-18-2020 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:01 PM
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I don't really use the terms neutral or neutrality. Stability is certainly a sliding scale. I don't see the sense in making discussions with my disc golf buddies overly complicated. Assuming you release a disc flat, at the same speed RHBH....overstable discs want to go left, stable discs want to go straight and understable discs want to go right. There are other factors that can be added to the equation. They are just labels for what happens, in the individual flight of your own discs. Each disc flies differently for every unique player. Given the different flight characteristics of different plastics within a mold, talking about stability is a moving target at best, unquantifiable at worst. I see it a more of a vague concept that a definable term or discussion point.

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Old 01-18-2020, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadlock86 View Post
no

neutral means flies straight. it is not turn+fade=0
neutral means what you think stable means



a lot of people are wrong on this. it's a common misunderstanding that overstable means turning left, stable means straight, and understable means turning right.

think of stability as a spectrum not 3 separate categories:

more OVERstable <--------------------> MORE UNDERstable

if you wanted to put them in 3 categories, they would be overstable, neutral, understable

of course you have to clarify what people mean when they describe a disc because there is so much misunderstanding of these terms, even among very experienced players or pros. but properly understood, when someone says a disc is stable it means it is in the range of somewhat to very overstable. said another way, a stable disc is one where turn+fade= a positive number
FTFY

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Old 01-18-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobfish View Post
Hey DGCR family,Hello friends 7 here
I think many users confuse the concept of stability versus neutrality and I'm one of them and I'm trying to clarify a few things.

Here is how I interpret the terms:

Neutral is how close to "ending where you aim" your disc will fly when thrown properly. It can fly straight and end straight like an Innova Mako3 or it can do a big S like an Innova Cobra, but it ends up in line with your aim. Back when Infinitediscs had a live chat, one of their helpers once told me that you can add the turn numbers and fade numbers and a negative number means it ends to your right (for RHBH), 0 means it ends straight, and a positive number means it ends to the left (for RHBH). So I interpret Turn+Fade=0 to be neutral. Is this a valid interpretation?
A complete noob that's never thrown a Mako3 or any other disc will need a beat to dog chew toy DX Cobra if they want their 200' max Distance drive to be "neutral" for them. I accept your definition of Neutral if you want to say that's how it flies for you to get a point where you were "ending where you aim", but I could throw a 300'+ Firebird directly into a strong headwind to end directly in front of me but I'd never agree that a Firebird should be considered "neutral".

Neutral, too me, means that the disc tends to fly straight at normal for me 80-85% power, turn = 0 and fade = 0. For me, that means my First Run beat Z Buzzz goes completely straight at 300' with no wind on a less than 10' line. If I throw it with more power to hit 340' on a similar 10' high line, it'll start to turn/show -1.5HSS/ and not fade/ -1 LSS. The Teebird, is beloved for it's neutral flight, However, a Teebird isn't the true thing of beauty that it'll become until they lose their Fade/LSS and get straighter and straighter as they age somehow retaining their resistance to turn/HSS. Is a Teebird Neutral? Depends who's throwing it, what the conditions are, what plastic it's molded in, and condition of said plastic.



Okay, on to stability. A stable disc is one that holds the line you put it on because it fights both the natural inclination to turn over with a high rotational speed (and this gives it "HSS" or High Speed Stability) as well as the disc's natural inclination to precess (fade) as it slows (which gives it "LSS" or Low Speed Stability). Thus a "stable" disc should have both a low turn number, which should determine how much angular speed will cause the disc to deviate from neutral to the right and a low fade number which should determine how much the disc will deviate to the left as the angular speed approaches zero. But by going with this definition alone, only discs like the 0/0 mako should truly be "stable" and that's not the case, and hence my confusion with the term.Depends who's throwing it, what the conditions are, and what plastic it's molded in, and condition of said plastic. I'd consider my well seasoned 11x Teebird to be a stable flier. After years of work I'd give my subjective flight numbers of 7/5/-.5/.5 It's not exactly 0/0 and started out 0/2. Currently, at 350' on a less than 10' high line with no wind it will hold a line to the ground with less than 10' lateral moverment. My buddy who throws Destroyers 500' would call it "understable" as it would turnover and cut roll if he really got on it. A noob that can't throw anything 300' might find it "overstable" as it will most likely finish well to the left.

Just keep in mind that flight numbers are just guidelines that vary greatly between different plastic types (Champion/Lucid/Evo/Pinnacle/Proton etc. and because the plastic pellets are constantly changing different runs within a particular manufacturer will differ. Also, the flight numbers assigned by competing manufacturers have their own totally subjective ratings.


So to further muddy the language, Overstability and Understability are used.

As far as I understand, Overstable means a disc that really fights the turn (very high speed stable and thus a low turn number) but generally has a lowhigh value for low speed stability which is why it fades pretty hard and has a high fade number. This is why the faster airspeeds associated with either strong throws and/or headwinds allow for overstable discs to fly straight instead of turning over and they have a predictable fading finish.

Conversely, Understable enables slower angular speeds to turn the disc and thus have low high speed stability meaning a high low/negative turn number. I'm not really sure why high speed instability geometry would result in greater low speed stability(Understable discs usually have less HSS and less LSS flight#s), but generally, understable discs tend to have lower fade numbers which implies a greaterlesser amount of LSS or am I mistaken?
For example; Teebird#s 7/5/0/2 vs Leopard 6/5/-2/1 turn/HSS is less as is fade/LSS
So finally, when we say "This disc is stable", are we talking about HSS? LSS? Both?

For me both but you gotta be clear here. There's a lot of confusion and room for interpretation. I usually say stable straight if I want to describe a shot that follows a point and shoot bee line on a flat release for a stated distance. I can also hyzer flip an understable disc to straight or flex an overstable disc for straight, depends on the best available line. **Most folks I play with call "stable" to mean the disc with fly at least partly overstable or not broken in.**

For example from Infinite Discs' website

Innova Cobra: 4/5/-2/2 rated: "stable"
Discraft Buzzz: 5/4/-1/1 rated: "stable"
Innova Shark: 4/4/0/2 rated: "overstable"
Daredevil Moose: 4/5/0/2 rated: "stable"
Discraft Rattler: 2/3/-1/1 rated: "overstable"
Discraft XL: 8/5/-1/2: rated "stable"

Good for Infinite for making it easy. Again, flight numbers between manufactures is damn near unless when assessing how it'll compare to a different manufacturer. Also, I hate to break it to you but no two discs will ever fly exactly the same.


I like the buzzz because in my mind it is very stable. It holds straight, hyzer, and anhyzer lines very well. To me, that is stable. On the other hand, the cobra turns over immediately for me and though it does try to fade back, I would never call the cobra "stable", even if it might be "neutral". cobras are understable my noob friend, they need hyzer to fly a straight line. If you max your cobra at 225', I'm gonna bet it doesn't have any turn/HSS=0 or fade/LSS=0 and therefore "Neutral" for you.

So yeah, if you got this far, please chime in on what I must be misinterpreting. Thank you!
Have a great day




$5 says Streets will swoop in here with some whitty one liner and get more likes than me
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Old 01-18-2020, 04:36 PM
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7ontheline 7ontheline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadlock86 View Post

if you wanted to put them in 3 categories, they would be overstable, stable, understable
FTFY
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:27 AM
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Just adding an aside to general terminology.

OOP means Out Of Production, not an Oops aka X-Out, like I have heard some folks reference.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ontheline View Post
$5 says Streets will swoop in here with some whitty one liner and get more likes than me
Reaction gifs are a balancing act.



Streets' drives however, are not:


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