#11  
Old 08-12-2018, 06:38 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Just to be clear, I agree that giving lateral, no closer to the hole relief in a situation like this is reasonable. But only if the entire field is informed of the relief as soon as possible (paint/rope off the nest, put up signs as needed, and verbally inform groups in the meantime) and ideally before they play the hole. Put no further players in any danger and hope that no one encountered the nest and took the stings to avoid penalty or worse, took an abandoned throw penalty and added multiple throws to their score unnecessarily because they didn't seek the TD right away.
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:03 PM
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teemkey teemkey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
I've dealt with bees as a local TD, Worlds TD and a player. The ruling I posted is consistent with all of those events. You don't mess around with bees and wasps. The former PDGA Prez carries an Epipen if getting stung. The players typically inform the TD of the bees nest for the TD to either eradicate them and/or paint a big circle around the area for the remainder of the round. If the TD does this so future groups get free relief and the originally affected player does not get it, how fair is that? You can't really say that the player should take a provisional since that would mean throwing from harm's way. If the player follows my recommendation, they may get a penalty initially. But when informing the TD to fix the situation and the TD does so, the TD would have to remove the penalty in fairness due to future groups getting free relief.
(and JC)

Would you recommend a player plays (1) using the modified casual relief, then (2) walks back to the previous lie and throws a provisional?

Collateral question: how would you recommend the players advise the TD (and/or other players) if there is no cell signal?
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:04 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Sorry but that's what I would do as a TD or official making the call. The game should be about fairness not about penalties everywhere you turn. The explicit rules already apply the concept to avoid compound penalties when two rule violations occur on the same throw. The strength of the rules is the Fairness rule right in the beginning of the rule book to counter what may be situations the explicit rules haven't been designed to rule fairly.
I'm not arguing that you wouldn't do it. I'm saying you would not be following the rules if you did it as a player. (As a TD is different.)

Even if players could make up new rules that are consistent with "concepts" in the rules (which, by the way, you can't if there is already a rule about it), that concept does not apply to this situation. Getting stung is not a Penalty nor a Violation.

There is nothing in the rules that allows a player to do anything for safety's sake.

The Fairness rule 801.01 A. does NOT say "to counter what may be situations the explicit rules haven't been designed to rule fairly." It DOES say "In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness." [Emphasis added.]

What's the difference? This: if an explicit rule creates an unfair ruling, you PLAY BY THE RULE.
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:13 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
(and JC)

Would you recommend a player plays (1) using the modified casual relief, then (2) walks back to the previous lie and throws a provisional?

Collateral question: how would you recommend the players advise the TD (and/or other players) if there is no cell signal?
I wouldn't recommend the provisional approach if only because the player has no idea how the TD would want to proceed. The TD may not want to use that modified relief idea, perhaps leaning toward putting in a free drop zone a safe distance away instead. If the players are guessing where they might be allowed to take relief outside of the normal rules, they're running the risk of guessing wrong or tying the TD's hands by forcing him to allow for whatever they chose whether he wants it that way or not.

As for advising the TD when there's no cell signal...there is still provision in the rules for a group to stand aside for a ruling (usually ignored in favor of playing provisionals). I think the first group to encounter the problem should stop and look for the TD or an official. Perhaps splitting up with one or two seeking the TD while other group members hang back to inform players of the situation when they get to the hole.
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