#161  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:12 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by 1978 View Post
What world do you live in? Of course many TD's take from the Am buy in to seed the added cash for pros. They use player pack "value" to satisfy the am payout even though their costs are 50-70% less (or free if sponsorship). They use that money to make a profit or grow added cash for the pros.

Its the old "hey this Brewery sticker I got for free is valued at $3" in the players pack.
What world do you live in? - hmm.. I guess I believed all the bs the local DFW peeps were telling me. That the TD never used am funds for the pro divisions. Now if you're saying the TD profits from the am entry fees (and he can do whatever he wants with the profits) and gives it to the pro divisions, I don't see a problem with that. Keep in mind.. I am not a fan of player packs or merch payouts.
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  #162  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:17 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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If you dont understand the dynamics of most disc golf communities, then you cant understand how valuable the local cash pool is to the courses and local clubs.
Pros getting cash with minimal outside sponsorship $(current situation)
Disc golf money leaving to be spent on non disc golf related things, hurts the sport.

Pros getting cash with outside sponsorship money (maybe future)
Non-disc golf money entering the disc golf community to be spent on disc golf related things helps the sport.
ok.. again.. still sounds like the easy solution is to not have pro divisions offered in the local am tournament scene. I guess I don't see how growing the pro side doesn't grow the sport. Still seems strange so many ams don't want to see the pro side grow more. Again.. I am not a pro, I could care less about player packs or winning merch. But I would like to see the pro side of the sport grow more.
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  #163  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:44 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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hmm... if you're logic is sound then why doesn't the TD just not have pro divisions for said big events?
Many reasons and they differ from one place/person to the next. Altruism and ego would be two of the foremost.

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  #164  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:01 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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ok.. again.. still sounds like the easy solution is to not have pro divisions offered in the local am tournament scene. I guess I don't see how growing the pro side doesn't grow the sport. Still seems strange so many ams don't want to see the pro side grow more. Again.. I am not a pro, I could care less about player packs or winning merch. But I would like to see the pro side of the sport grow more.
But the pro side is growing, already. Whether you're thinking of the top pro levels, or your local pros, it is growing with the current system.

What some don't support is undercutting the am side, with the theory that doing so will further grow the pro side. How does growing the pro side by shrinking the am side, grow the sport as a whole? That's all schemes to push ams to go pro, really do.

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Old 05-18-2019, 10:29 PM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
What world do you live in? - hmm.. I guess I believed all the bs the local DFW peeps were telling me. That the TD never used am funds for the pro divisions. Now if you're saying the TD profits from the am entry fees (and he can do whatever he wants with the profits) and gives it to the pro divisions, I don't see a problem with that. Keep in mind.. I am not a fan of player packs or merch payouts.
Not all seed pro with am buyin, but many do. If you see "a X value" for players pack, likely they are playing some game.
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  #166  
Old 05-18-2019, 11:10 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1978 View Post
The issue is low amount of community sponsors.

Pros are about the worst thing for the growth of the sport. Pros, especially traveling ones, come into local communities get paid out from entry and added cash. This is largely funded by mid level ams guilted to play pro or hoping to play 1 round with a named pro player. The entry fees are large (comparatively), disc golfers wallets are not.

This cash flows from the ams, to pros or TD's to pros and leaves the community to be spent on the road. Most pros do almost no course maintenance, support local sponsors, or purchase from DG retailers.

In the current format, pros cause money to leave the sport, thus reducing the amount of good td's, ability for local clubs to maintain their properties and it reduces the amount of local leagues that players can play due to eating up large amounts of DG budget playing pro.

Until a majority of the payout comes from outside of the sport, pro divisions will continue to hurt the sport.

Real pros SHOULD do everything they can to make money, but generally, it is self serving. IMO they hurt the sport more than they help.
The only thing Pro players do to help directly is stuff like clinics to help others, though most for a fee $$. Then the Pro if lucky to have a sponsor do often do a help a sponsor or more then one make money so we have the equipment to buy from said company/companies for the sport we like to play.
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  #167  
Old 05-19-2019, 02:02 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
What world do you live in? - hmm.. I guess I believed all the bs the local DFW peeps were telling me. That the TD never used am funds for the pro divisions. Now if you're saying the TD profits from the am entry fees (and he can do whatever he wants with the profits) and gives it to the pro divisions, I don't see a problem with that. Keep in mind.. I am not a fan of player packs or merch payouts.
I can't speak for any company or TDs other than the ones I know. DDC doesn't seed the pro added cash with Am differential. Added cash in their tournaments is only from sponsors. Dave, if you don't believe, go find a tournament with similar am entry fees and number of entrants (DDC vs other), then compare the am payouts. Stevo puts all of it into the Am payout and PPack -- aka all of it goes to the Ams not pros.


If the author of this post is from a different area of the country then I understand where he is coming from. The practice of seeding pro added cash with Am differential is pretty common elsewhere.
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  #168  
Old 05-21-2019, 06:21 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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I can't speak for any company or TDs other than the ones I know. DDC doesn't seed the pro added cash with Am differential. Added cash in their tournaments is only from sponsors. Dave, if you don't believe, go find a tournament with similar am entry fees and number of entrants (DDC vs other), then compare the am payouts. Stevo puts all of it into the Am payout and PPack -- aka all of it goes to the Ams not pros.
My other reply was a bit sarcastic btw. Like I said earlier, imop the TD can do whatever he wants to with his profits. If he wants to put it towards the pro payout, I see zero conflict. However.. the PDGA has done a fkd up job making ams think they deserve anything other than a hand shake when they enter a tournament. Hence my op. I drank that kool-aid for far too long. Same things with merch, player packs, etc. Again I have ZERO problems with TDs making a killing on the tournament, bring the store to the event and sell! I'm just not a fan of forced player packs, merch, etc, being part of the profit chain. Hence the growing interest in providing ways to opt out of player packs, merch, in return for lower entry fees.

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  #169  
Old 05-21-2019, 06:45 AM
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scarpfish scarpfish is offline
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Lower entry fees and the option to forgo player's packs are an option the PDGA has made available. They're called C-tiers.

How about we quit blaming the PDGA for something that is the collective fault of the disc golf community for not thinking out of the box? Even unsanctioned events use the "Am scam" model to fund tourneys.

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  #170  
Old 05-21-2019, 07:06 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by scarpfish View Post
Lower entry fees and the option to forgo player's packs are an option the PDGA has made available. They're called C-tiers.

How about we quit blaming the PDGA for something that is the collective fault of the disc golf community for not thinking out of the box? Even unsanctioned events use the "Am scam" model to fund tourneys.
When the PDGA's standards are based 100% on the amount of trinkets awarded to "amateurs" it is hard to not see them as a contributing factor to the problem. TD's should not have to get creative to find ways to run inexpensive events. There is also an issue imo when a TD cannot run a higher-tiered event without "x" amount of payout regardless of whatever else goes into the event.

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