#651  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:44 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I'm not sure if this question was directed at me?

I really have no idea. There are sports though, that appear to me to have a minimal amount of athleticism required and no obvious benefit to being a male, where they still separate competition into male and female (think of billiards for example). Are elite female billiard players able to compete with male billiard players? I have no idea, someone more familiar with professional billiards would have to answer that question.

Maybe there is an inherent male trait that allows better execution of focus based tasks? How does the C1 putting percentage for elite MPO players compare to FPO?
Let me udisclive that for you ��
I have checked the top ranked players in each division, and the %'s show a difference, in favour of men. But they also show a difference in C1 GIR hits, in favour of men.
I think the jury is still out on whether being male makes for a better putter. Circumstance allows for too much variation.
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  #652  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:32 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Let me udisclive that for you ��
I have checked the top ranked players in each division, and the %'s show a difference, in favour of men. But they also show a difference in C1 GIR hits, in favour of men.
I think the jury is still out on whether being male makes for a better putter. Circumstance allows for too much variation.
You'd need to see a large enough set of women and men in the circle, doing just the putting, not "putting to extend or protect a lead, or trying to make up ground"
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  #653  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:58 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Your logic is backward.
The fact thy hypothetically one COULD does not imply that there would be inherent athletic advantages.
COULD is simply whether or not the possibility to circumvent the system exists.

"
Here's what does imply it:

(1) Outside of the trans- issue, men have inherent athletic advantages over women. There is strong evidence from the results we see. If not true, why have separate divisions, at all? Just social?

(2) Those advantages come from an array of physical differences, including but not limited to testosterone levels.

(3) The transition changes at least one of those differences---the testosterone---but not the others.

(4) Thus, a player would retain some of those inherent athletic advantages.

That's not proof. That's merely implied.

The best answer may be Yes, but the one advantage (testosterone, and its affects) is the major one, and remaining ones aren't significant enough. I don't know that that's true, but people who know a lot more about it than I do, say that it is.

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  #654  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:07 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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True that.

That still leaves the COULD part if transition as the perceived proof of said advantage. And the COULD is what I reacted to.
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  #655  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:39 AM
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I'm on your side. I think the PDGA has made the best ruling, all things considered. I just don't think you can dismiss that aspect of it, other than to say it's outweighed by the rest.

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  #656  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:17 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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I'm on your side. I think the PDGA has made the best ruling, all things considered. I just don't think you can dismiss that aspect of it, other than to say it's outweighed by the rest.

Which I have said, *a few* times

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  #657  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:32 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Why are we talking about skill? There is no cap on how good a player can be and still qualify for an age or sex protected division. Those divisions cater to players who want to play with others like themselves.

Maybe the test for "F" divisions should be that if you ever assume another player would benefit from your offer to fix their throw, you're not eligible.

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  #658  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:23 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Those divisions cater to players who want to play with others like themselves.
1000 "nice"s for this
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  #659  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:12 AM
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Why are we talking about skill? There is no cap on how good a player can be and still qualify for an age or sex protected division. Those divisions cater to players who want to play with others like themselves.

Maybe the test for "F" divisions should be that if you ever assume another player would benefit from your offer to fix their throw, you're not eligible.
There has been very little talk of why we have protected divisions, in this thread. It seems to be if there's going to be a debate about who gets to play in them, the "why" would matter.

I tried, way back there, and did mention the social reasons (for which, there should be no question at all). But I think the other argument isn't about skill, but athleticism, and the inherent limitations of certain groups. Not individuals---there are women and kids and older men more athletic than I---but groups:

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Could we talk disc golf?

It might help to ponder the reasons for protected divisions in the first place. Not just gender-protected, but age-protected (young and old) as well.

I'm just speculating here, since I wasn't in on the discussions to form them. It seems to me that they exist for a couple of reasons:

(1) Social---that people are more comfortable in these divisions. That many women would enjoy their experience being with, and competing against, other women, than being in divisions that are 90% men. Same thing with kids; better socially for them to be grouped together, than thrown in with the adults.

(2) Inherent limitations. Recognizing biological realities, that on average players in these groups don't have the same athletic tools as young men, and that there is a practical ceiling on how good they can be. It doesn't matter that that there is a wide variety of athleticism and body types within a division; that some women are better than some men, or some kids are better than some older players. Or, for that matter, so are some older men.

(But not) balanced competition, which the ratings system does much better. Protected divisions don't guarantee and competitiveness among all participants, and I don't think that's the primary goal.

*

The question of placement of transgendered women is where they fit. For #1, it's not a question at all. For #2, I'd think it's a matter of how the changes they've had are comparable to the inherent limitations of those born female---as to the average, and the ceiling.

There's no perfect answer, but to me the PDGA did the right thing in adopting the IOC standards. It's a pretty conservative line they've drawn, and it puts us in alignment with many other sports around the world.

That, and the relative rarity of the situation, and the fact that it's just disc golf tournaments we're talking about---not millions of dollars at stake---also leads me to feel it's a really minor matter on the PDGA's plate.

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  #660  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:39 AM
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Soon time for the 2019 World Athletics Championships, and this question is hotter than ever . .

Big story in Swedisc news today about CeCe Telfer and it is an interesting read
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