#61  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:47 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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.....I was referring to 'time to arrive at the lie' as unambiguously meaning 'travel time' and not 'shot and disc selection time'.



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  #62  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:53 PM
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Dan Ensor Dan Ensor is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Talk of tying shoelaces etc feels like nitpicking while ignoring my broader points.
Not nitpicking. Showing your stance as indefensible. There absolutely are other things than walking that are involved in reasonably arriving at your lie. You can't just ignore all the things up to the point you want to allow them and say you've logically proven something.
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  #63  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:58 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
.....I was referring to 'time to arrive at the lie' as unambiguously meaning 'travel time' and not 'shot and disc selection time'.
It's arrive at AND determine the lie. To determine the lie, you need to know where the target is, right?
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  #64  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:27 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Ensor View Post
.....Showing your stance as indefensible. .....
Ok then, let's see how firm the foundations of your position are.

Your argument is that this sentence:

Quote:
2. They have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie; and,
gives you permission to not start the 30 second timer until you have had time, and you don't specify how much time, until you've had time to choose your shot and choose your disc.

So in the scenario where you throw your shot into the edge of some trees and you don't know whether the disc has got a clear view of the basket or whether it's tucked in behind a tree, you don't know whether there is low canopy in your way or not, tell me, how are you going to choose your disc and how are you going to choose your shot without.......um......what's the phrase.......er.......you know......without arriving at and determining your lie?

In this scenario, how can you be there, working out what disc you want to throw, and working out what line at the basket you have, without being deemed to have arrived? And without being deemed to have determined your lie?

Is your argument that arriving means specifically stepping on to the lie? If it is then that seems like an obtuse reading of 'arrive'. If the rules meant that, wouldn't they say that? When I pull up at my mum's house and text my partner that 'I have arrived', am I lying because I'm still in the car on the road outside her house and not actually inside the front door?

The only time you are going to be able to choose what disc you want to throw and choose what line you want to throw BEFORE you have physically arrived at your disc is in the trivial circumstance where you can see where the disc is, and what line you have, pretty much from the get-go, which removes the need to allow people to choose their disc and shot before the excessive time clock starts in the first place.

Your interpretation of the excessive time rule only has any value to a player if they can choose their disc and choose their shot after they have seen where the disc is. For a large amount of shots that means actually physically being at the disc.

You my friend.... have arrived.

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  #65  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:46 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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To be clear, if your starting point is that you don't like competitive idiots who game the excessive time rule for their own advantage, then sure, I'm with you.

I'm am only arguing what the rules, as currently written, can be interpreted to mean. I'm not arguing whether the rules are 'right' or 'wrong'.

Last edited by cheesethin; 12-11-2018 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:56 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
To be clear, if your starting point is that you don't like competitive idiots who game the excessive time rule for their own advantage, then sure, I'm with you.

I'm am only arguing what the rules, as currently written, can be interpreted to mean. I'm not arguing whether the rules are 'right' or 'wrong'.
There's a line between "gaming" any rule to one's advantage and simply enforcing a rule properly. And it's not a fine line, it's a broad bold line. However, in my experience in disc golf, there are way too many people who view plain old enforcement of a rule as "gaming". Makes it very difficult to enforce the rules when that enforcement too often gets painted as something underhanded or nefarious.

Also makes it tough to have earnest discussions of rules interpretation and enforcement if one side's argument is enforcing a rule is an unwelcome act of aggression.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:36 AM
DoWork DoWork is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
To be clear, if your starting point is that you don't like competitive idiots who game the excessive time rule for their own advantage, then sure, I'm with you.

I've actually seen the opposite- a guy who was starting the 30 second count from when someone got to their disc- before they put their bag down or even looked at the basket- as a means to pressure them during their throw. You'd get there and he'd be all "starting count" and once you'd throw, he would be like "That was 24 seconds" before he was nearly thrown out of the tourney for it. FWIW the guy is also a serial score fudger and has an awful reputation as a cheater and whiner throughout the region. He was also playing on a card with first year players, so it was viewed as being WAY over the line d-baggish. The rules can be abused in both directions, and that's worth noting.
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  #68  
Old 12-11-2018, 11:23 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
I've actually seen the opposite- a guy who was starting the 30 second count from when someone got to their disc- before they put their bag down or even looked at the basket- as a means to pressure them during their throw. You'd get there and he'd be all "starting count" and once you'd throw, he would be like "That was 24 seconds" before he was nearly thrown out of the tourney for it. FWIW the guy is also a serial score fudger and has an awful reputation as a cheater and whiner throughout the region. He was also playing on a card with first year players, so it was viewed as being WAY over the line d-baggish. The rules can be abused in both directions, and that's worth noting.
So, what you're saying is: 24 seconds is plenty of time for even a first year player to put their bag down, look at the target, pick out their line, grab their disc and throw.

That guy was starting the clock at the right moment, but he shouldn't have enforced it that way.
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:53 AM
DoWork DoWork is offline
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So, what you're saying is: 24 seconds is plenty of time for even a first year player to put their bag down, look at the target, pick out their line, grab their disc and throw.

That guy was starting the clock at the right moment, but he shouldn't have enforced it that way.

So wait, you're siding with the guy who literally every single person that day agreed was being a complete dbag and was one move away from being physically thrown out of the park by his own team for his nefariously motivated and completely unreasonable interpretation of the rules?

I'm not sure what kind of person would back that kind of behavior, but I'm going to imagine something is being lost in translation and you're not the worst person imaginable.
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  #70  
Old 12-11-2018, 12:24 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
So wait, you're siding with the guy who literally every single person that day agreed was being a complete dbag and was one move away from being physically thrown out of the park by his own team for his nefariously motivated and completely unreasonable interpretation of the rules?

I'm not sure what kind of person would back that kind of behavior, but I'm going to imagine something is being lost in translation and you're not the worst person imaginable.
Just because the guy was being a dick about it doesn't mean he was incorrect about the rule. Ignoring his method of applying it what is "completely unreasonable" about his interpretation of the rule?

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