#21  
Old 12-15-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I would support that interpretation- same as solid obstacle rule for the most part.
Perhaps the RC can clarify---something on the order of if a casual obstacle can't be moved, physically or legally (because part of it extends in front of the lie)....
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2018, 02:11 PM
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Using “and” linking the n the stance area and no closer to the target would mean to meet both conditions. I think it had to get updated to say stance area which is now 20 x 30 cm now but they didn’t do a good job of wording it to clearly define forward of the lie. You can’t understand the intent of the rule now. I think that the way it’s written is that you can’t move anything that extends forward of your stance area now. If so it’s definitely a regresssion to the old rule and an ankle breaker.

Maybe a slow progression to making every shot “stand and deliver”?
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:52 PM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Yet another example of the RC not asking for changes to be vetted before implementing them. They know what the change is supposed to mean an how it is supposed to be interpreted because they know the reason for the change and have had the discussion. Everyone else doesn’t so the rule is open to (incorrect) interpretation.
When will they learn? Likely never.

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Old 12-15-2018, 04:13 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by joegraham View Post
Using “and” linking the n the stance area and no closer to the target would mean to meet both conditions. I think it had to get updated to say stance area which is now 20 x 30 cm now but they didn’t do a good job of wording it to clearly define forward of the lie. You can’t understand the intent of the rule now. I think that the way it’s written is that you can’t move anything that extends forward of your stance area now. If so it’s definitely a regresssion to the old rule and an ankle breaker.

Maybe a slow progression to making every shot “stand and deliver”?
The Stance isn't the same as the Lie. They have separate sections in 802 Throwing. And the first line in 802.05 Lie gives
Quote:
A. The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw.
The lie is the 20x30 area on the playing surface, and the stance is the position the player takes (which must include at least one supporting point in contact with the lie.)

So I'm guessing that the new wording of 'stance area' is referring to all of the area within which the player chooses to stand/kneel/straddle/lie down to take their stance. I might be wrong but I think this is what they mean.

This confusion also came up on Reddit. I wonder how wide spread it will be.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
The Stance isn't the same as the Lie. They have separate sections in 802 Throwing. And the first line in 802.05 Lie gives

The lie is the 20x30 area on the playing surface, and the stance is the position the player takes (which must include at least one supporting point in contact with the lie.)

So I'm guessing that the new wording of 'stance area' is referring to all of the area within which the player chooses to stand/kneel/straddle/lie down to take their stance. I might be wrong but I think this is what they mean.

This confusion also came up on Reddit. I wonder how wide spread it will be.
This is correct. Stance area allows for the moving of casual obstacles that do not cross/contact the 20x30 box but are still within reach of it when the player takes his stance. I would expect it also means obstacles in the player's run up as well. The rule at one time specified that was allowed (803.05.C(3) of 2006 rule book). Subsequent updates eliminated a lot of the specificity, to the detriment of the rules IMO.

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Old 12-16-2018, 09:04 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Yet another example of the RC not asking for changes to be vetted before implementing them. They know what the change is supposed to mean an how it is supposed to be interpreted because they know the reason for the change and have had the discussion. Everyone else doesn’t so the rule is open to (incorrect) interpretation.
When will they learn? Likely never.
Perhaps, seeing as these new updates do not take effect until January 1, they'll see fit to clarify things in the next couple weeks before anyone can (mis)apply the rules officially. It's certainly not the best way to vet them, but at least it's something.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:23 PM
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I think it sould be "you can move any object touching the 20x30 no matter where that object happens to extend but once the throw is made all objects must be replaced as close to their original position. Failure to do so will result in a penalty for altering the course." JMTC
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:43 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Originally Posted by peabody View Post
I think it sould be "you can move any object touching the 20x30 no matter where that object happens to extend but once the throw is made all objects must be replaced as close to their original position. Failure to do so will result in a penalty for altering the course." JMTC
Then you would have to replace every twig kicked out of the way and put it back.
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:01 AM
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peabody peabody is offline
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Then you would have to replace every twig kicked out of the way and put it back.
Yep. And every leaf/piece of dirt/crushed beer can/cigarette butt/used prophylactic and critters that happen to occupy that space.........
All kidding aside, interpreting the spirit of the rules of this game takes common sense. That is something not so common around the courses I frequent.
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  #30  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
This is correct. Stance area allows for the moving of casual obstacles that do not cross/contact the 20x30 box but are still within reach of it when the player takes his stance. I would expect it also means obstacles in the player's run up as well. The rule at one time specified that was allowed (803.05.C(3) of 2006 rule book). Subsequent updates eliminated a lot of the specificity, to the detriment of the rules IMO.
I haven't been around DG very long but I have been in rules discussions for many sports for a quite a long time. I've watched rules in sports i'm active in grow and shrink and change over the years and there are some commonality between them all.

To start the hope is to be able to write something with as few words as possible to be easily understood and encompass as much of the game as possible. This is very difficult because the flip side we want more specificity and clarity but the more specific a rule the more it is questioned in those odd 0.01% instances. Thus... the continued "growth" of a rule book to be more generalized, until it is too general and then what I have normally seen is a huge rubber band effect and the entire rules set is re-done to be complete legaleze that you have to pour over each word for meaning.

Spirit of the law

For most rule changes in every sport I've seen you have to look at where the previous rule or wording was falling short and try and maintain the spirit of the law in the new wording.
With that I would agree this is a bit poorly worded change but really fail to see why one would want to interpret that if the obstacle extends forward of the lie it cannot be touched? The new wording is expanding the area defined to allow casual obstacles to be moved so why would it expand but then limit? Previously the obstacle HAD to be at least partially within the lie. Lots of people I think ignored that when say their back foot was on a loose rock say. The new rule allows to move that stick/rock that is 3' off to the side where you need to place a foot for straddle putt, or maybe? even a stick in your run-up. I think the not in front simply means if it isn't in your stance your follow through or jump putt landing is not considered. I don't ever see the logic when a rule isn't clear to over interpret to mean the most limiting definition.

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