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Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

And do you claim to utilize this for hyper omega specific shot shaping, or what lol?

I am genuinely curious.
For putters approach throws I try to throw slightly nose up usually. For drives off the tee I either turn the key or use the grip change + pour the tea to try for medium nose down depending on how I'm feeling.

When turning the key for medium nose down if I mistime it or turn it too hard or too soft I'm typically either nose neutral or extra nose down which is a relatively safe miss in both directions. Compared to say 0 nose down vs +5 nose up as a miss.

I would stick to just one off the tee probably if I was training for max consistency, but I'm still experimenting with form tweaks often so sometimes one feels more on than the other.

Being able to turn the key, gently, medium, or hard gives me three distinct reference points which makes it easier to feel where i'm at or to target one of them.
 
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For putters approach throws I try to throw slightly nose up usually. For drives off the tee I either turn the key or use the grip change + pour the tea to try for medium nose down depending on how I'm feeling.

When turning the key for medium nose down if I mistime it or turn it too hard or too soft I'm typically either nose neutral or extra nose down which is a relatively safe miss in both directions. Compared to say 0 nose down vs +5 nose up as a miss.

I would stick to just one off the tee probably if I was training for max consistency, but I'm still experimenting with form tweaks often so sometimes one feels more on than the other.

Being able to turn the key, gently, medium, or hard gives me three distinct reference points which makes it easier to feel where i'm at or to target one of them.
Do you spend more reps with the Tech Disc or actual field work?
 
it seems that GG is pretty clearly doing more active wrist rotation.
Neil, to just clarify - the wrist does not rotate. The forearm rotates. The wrist only move in 4 directions (extension, flexion, ulnar and radial deviation. The Ulnar and Radial bones 'cross' in the middle of the forearm causing the rest of the wrist, hand, and fingers to rotate.
 
Do you spend more reps with the Tech Disc or actual field work?
Tech disc. I know how the stats translate to throw in the field decently well from when I do field work so I can save time and get more practice reps to work on the form and save energy by not having to retrieve the discs.

I've won tourneys where I turn the key on pretty much every tee shot and other tourney where I don't turn the key on tee shots (MA2) so my tech disc work is helping me on the course as well. Also done terribly in tournaments too, lol.
 
Neil, to just clarify - the wrist does not rotate. The forearm rotates. The wrist only move in 4 directions (extension, flexion, ulnar and radial deviation. The Ulnar and Radial bones 'cross' in the middle of the forearm causing the rest of the wrist, hand, and fingers to rotate.
Good point. I def want to be more accurate / consistent with the terms / descriptions but I think a lot of people perceive it as more to do with their wrist so it's probably helpful for many people to focus attention close to the wrist when trying to adjust supination / pronation or to identify it based on which side of the wrist is visible from certain angles.

My attention is close to the wrist joint when manipulating supination / pronation whether it's disc golf or racket sports or turning dumbbells.
 
I probably wasn't paying enough attention, I thought this key turning thing was rotating the forearm (wrist). So you're trying to force the wrist closed into the hit?
 
I probably wasn't paying enough attention, I thought this key turning thing was rotating the forearm (wrist). So you're trying to force the wrist closed into the hit?
It is, Chris was just pointing out that me saying "wrist rotation" was technically the wrong terminology since supination and pronation are technically forearm rotation but of course from that forearm rotation, the direction the palm is facing changes.

I don't know what people generally would call open or closed in relation to this so i don't use those terms for supination or pronation. But open and closed in terms of the brace foot is pretty widely recognized it seems, so I do use those terms there.
 
With the caveat that pros don't always know how to coach, here are a couple of instances of pros saying "turn the key":

AB telling his girlfriend "keep the nose down. turn the key" and showing the supinating motion

Jen Allen telling Bill Nye "it will turn over for you, don't worry about turning over the key"

In the first case AB explicitly states he's talking about nose angle, and it sounds like he's telling her to do it actively. Although we could dissect that he's not really trying to prevent nose up, but rather prevent the newb hyzer, which would lend to it being more about hyzer angle than nose angle.

In the second case, it seems clear she's talking about hyzer angle, not nose angle, since she's saying he doesn't need to actively supinate to flat to prevent the newb hyzer. Which we could then deduce that she did previously tell him to actively turn the key, but to control hyzer angle, not nose angle.
 
With the caveat that pros don't always know how to coach, here are a couple of instances of pros saying "turn the key":

AB telling his girlfriend "keep the nose down. turn the key" and showing the supinating motion

Jen Allen telling Bill Nye "it will turn over for you, don't worry about turning over the key"

In the first case AB explicitly states he's talking about nose angle, and it sounds like he's telling her to do it actively. Although we could dissect that he's not really trying to prevent nose up, but rather prevent the newb hyzer, which would lend to it being more about hyzer angle than nose angle.

In the second case, it seems clear she's talking about hyzer angle, not nose angle, since she's saying he doesn't need to actively supinate to flat to prevent the newb hyzer. Which we could then deduce that she did previously tell him to actively turn the key, but to control hyzer angle, not nose angle.
For noobs who release more in front of them then turn the key can reduce hyzer, like in putting.
 
Are you describing deliberately adding OAT here?

I don't agree with deliberately adding 'supination momentum' being a good goal.

I don't think the definition of OAT is really disputed. To me, you are very literally describing adding OAT if you are deliberately adding 'supination' momentum into the swing.

From what I've seen Neil and Josh describe in here, they are purposefully trying to pop the wrist position right before the hit. yes, this would create off axis torque. Also really hard on your elbow joint as well.

Now when you look at Pete's video about it, he talks about basically adding off axis torque to get gyroscopic precession. And that's not incorrect at all, when you apply forces like that you get gyroscopic precession. The issue is, you can't always control it with how we throw a disc.
So that roll of the forearm might come and cause the disc to just do all sorts of weird stuff.

OAT isn't necessarily bad, but its not good. Look at every one of eagles big drives and its wobbly AF.
But I guarintee you the last thing he's thinking is "man if i flip my forearm and turn the key at the last minute, i can send his 650 feet"

I'm not saying it can't work, maybe you can time it and have it impart force on axis, but...the way you are talking about this is pretty much exactly why I think its a subpar cue. Trying to time this type of thing is just an inconsistency I don't want to introduce into my swing, when the alternative is much, much simpler.

It's a bandaid que for bad arm posture in the swing. It's not that it "doesn't" work, its just like you said, a bad que to fix a different issue.

So why do you think so many pros do it? Many pros come into the pocket with less supination than they end up with during the hit. Why would many converge on this unnecessary added complexity?

I'm curious in the isolated and slowish putting stroke vid I posted just before, how it feels to you to compare it. Just raw feeling.

Top pro's? Which ones are doing it? I've posted some of the longest and largest throwers in the world in here, they dont do it. One of them you could see from behind, that dude is top gun player.

Or are you just guessing that they are doing it because they briefcase carry and it comes into alignment so they must be whipping their wrist over to turn the key to get the nose down?

What part are you not getting? Turning the key isn't getting the nose down.
It's fixing bad wrist alignment.

Nose angle is controlled from grip and posture.

You can watch video's how simon talks about how to throw nose up and its a grip change.

Neil, to just clarify - the wrist does not rotate. The forearm rotates. The wrist only move in 4 directions (extension, flexion, ulnar and radial deviation. The Ulnar and Radial bones 'cross' in the middle of the forearm causing the rest of the wrist, hand, and fingers to rotate.

This is true, but its a posture/alignment thing. the turn the key que is fixing bad arm posture during the throw that causes the wrist to deflect or pronate in the swing, vs be online with the target.
Forcing yourself to snap your arm over to supinate your wrist is a recipe for some really good elbow damage.

Sidewinder has constantly posted posture posture posture in here, and its about posture and alignment.

Tech disc. I know how the stats translate to throw in the field decently well from when I do field work so I can save time and get more practice reps to work on the form and save energy by not having to retrieve the discs.

I've won tourneys where I turn the key on pretty much every tee shot and other tourney where I don't turn the key on tee shots (MA2) so my tech disc work is helping me on the course as well. Also done terribly in tournaments too, lol.

This is the internet equivalent of "arm chair quarterback" or "armchair keyboard warrior."

It's great you're improving and getting better at golf.
And if this method works for you, do it. But it disqualifies half your data you're trying to present.
While you have tech disc data, you have barely any experience.

For noobs who release more in front of them then turn the key can reduce hyzer, like in putting.

This is hilarious statement.
With the caveat that pros don't always know how to coach, here are a couple of instances of pros saying "turn the key":

AB telling his girlfriend "keep the nose down. turn the key" and showing the supinating motion

Jen Allen telling Bill Nye "it will turn over for you, don't worry about turning over the key"

In the first case AB explicitly states he's talking about nose angle, and it sounds like he's telling her to do it actively. Although we could dissect that he's not really trying to prevent nose up, but rather prevent the newb hyzer, which would lend to it being more about hyzer angle than nose angle.

In the second case, it seems clear she's talking about hyzer angle, not nose angle, since she's saying he doesn't need to actively supinate to flat to prevent the newb hyzer. Which we could then deduce that she did previously tell him to actively turn the key, but to control hyzer angle, not nose angle.

I watched both of these.
The bill nye one was just absolutely silly. But bill has atrocious form. Absolutely atrocious. IIRC he throws force annie flexes. and she was trying to fix that. So he's used to trying to turn his arm over to force the annie. Again. Turn the key was an anhyzer que, not a nose que. This isn't anything new.
I'm pretty sure that she said "dont worry about turning the key"
She actually said "It will turn over for you, dont worry about turning the key."

You can clearly tell in AB's video he's trying to get her to stop limp wristing the throw by getting her to try and keep her wrist in position on the throw. Her immediate next throw is a limp wrist hyzer which a lot of new players will do when they don't have good instruction to start with.
 
It's a bandaid que for bad arm posture in the swing
Do you mean it's usually a bandaid? Because you keep saying this in an absolute-sounding way as if it's impossible for the cue to be useful in certain cases, such as for people who have good form. My form of course needs work, but as an example, I can throw -3 to -5 nose down without turning the key, so my wrist position in those throws is probably pretty well-aligned. But turn the key also works well for me, so what is turning the key bandaiding in my case or other cases where someone can throw nose down with a pretty good wrist position without it?

Here's Kyle Klein turning the key imo at 1:35. I don't care if he is using the cue 'turn the key', he is doing the mechanic regardless of what cue he uses for it, if any. I'm not attached to that cue specifically, there can be many cues that all converge on the underlying mechanic.


In the first picture, if he opened his elbow here without supinating, he wouldn't be throwing towards the rim of the disc, he would be throwing at the bottom flight plate. The back of the hand is facing slightly upwards and then at the hit it is facing away from the chest. How did this change occur in the orientation of the back of the hand if it's not supination? This is one of many examples of pros who do this.
1719327905235.png
At the same point of the throw roughly, Gavin is supinated more than Kyle (has been supinated since reach back), so Gavin does NOT have to turn the key:
1719328769911.png

This is hilarious statement.
Attached vid of supination adding anhyzer when release is in front of you. Not sure why you think that is hilarious.
 

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My attention is close to the wrist joint when manipulating supination / pronation whether it's disc golf or racket sports or turning dumbbells.
This is already a very micro thread so I will add to its micro-ness -

Please keep in mind the center of rotation when supinating or pronating. If you put a pencil in your hand between your thumb/index, generally aligned with a disc grip, and then rotate your forearm, in order for the center of rotation to be at the point of the pencil, you need to increase ulnar deviation in order to align the pencil tip to forearm rotation.

"IF" your intention is "turning the key" the focus of the rotation should be at the point of the key (disc) which is at the pressure between thumb/index not up in the wrist. No matter how you get there, the nose angle delivered to the disc is the orientation of your thumb/index at the instant of release.
 
This is already a very micro thread so I will add to its micro-ness -

Please keep in mind the center of rotation when supinating or pronating. If you put a pencil in your hand between your thumb/index, generally aligned with a disc grip, and then rotate your forearm, in order for the center of rotation to be at the point of the pencil, you need to increase ulnar deviation in order to align the pencil tip to forearm rotation.

"IF" your intention is "turning the key" the focus of the rotation should be at the point of the key (disc) which is at the pressure between thumb/index not up in the wrist. No matter how you get there, the nose angle delivered to the disc is the orientation of your thumb/index at the instant of release.

Yes, The idea is to set the disc up in your hand so that the joints can move in a fashion that allow the disc to come out on the correct plane of play with the least amount of off axis torque.

If you're trying to realistically snap your arm over so your wrist pops down, you're technically throwing the nose up on the disc, as the nose isn't at your pointer finger, its further around the disc so when the disc rotates out of your hand, the nose is going to be "up".

The joints have to line up for the disc to come out. our wrist only has so much deflection it can make which is why grip is important, and trying to compensate for a poor grip by "pouring the coffee" can over stress your other joints as you try and force the false nose of the disc down still throwing nose up with even worse posture at this point.

The whole thing turn the key does is last second snap your wrist into a more "correct" position creating off axis torque and a hard stress load on your elbow as it tries to compensate for you bumping your arm over that hard. When you can just actually start with more correct form.

The point of the briefcase carry isn't about turning the key. It's about being relaxed and getting a natural grip on the disc that will allow you to not overpressure your wrist into a pronated hinge, but a hinge on the target.

I put some thought into that, cause when you briefcase, you gotta get the disc into alignment, but you're never actively turning it. The body just naturally will put it on plane when inertia does its thing.

I agree with jaani, the only time you should be thinking about turning keys is on annie shots to help you stay up over top of the disc. Thats why this was always an anhyzer que, not a nose que.

And.. I already broke down the video info. so.

Appreciate your insightful comments in here though chris.
 
This is already a very micro thread so I will add to its micro-ness -

Please keep in mind the center of rotation when supinating or pronating. If you put a pencil in your hand between your thumb/index, generally aligned with a disc grip, and then rotate your forearm, in order for the center of rotation to be at the point of the pencil, you need to increase ulnar deviation in order to align the pencil tip to forearm rotation.

"IF" your intention is "turning the key" the focus of the rotation should be at the point of the key (disc) which is at the pressure between thumb/index not up in the wrist. No matter how you get there, the nose angle delivered to the disc is the orientation of your thumb/index at the instant of release.
That's a cool example with the pencil, thanks. I can see without ulnar deviation the rotation of the pencil has more 'wobble' / tilted axis to it. I don't think about ulnar deviation when turning the key but I think it probably happens automatically to some degree when I focus on trying to turn the key.

I think for many people thinking about the fingers like you mentioned is useful, especially for people with frisbee experience where pushing down with the thumb is a common cue for pronation, so a cue that mirrors that for supination could be really useful. For me though, from prior racket sport experience I'm already used to just thinking about changing which way the wrist is facing more directly, so I don't actually think about the fingers--not disputing their usefulness of course.

However, your point about the focus of turn the key being on the index + thumb can potentially feel quite different for different grip alignments. The grip alignment in my throw 1 has MUCH more of a pinch point between index and thumb whereas the grip in throw 3 has the thumb much further in front of the index finger and has quite a different feel in terms of the relationship between thumb and index finger pressure.

The grip in throw 3 also gives me a much stronger urge to ulnar deviate.

For example, you can see how far in front of the index finger Gavin's thumb is. Thumb pressure feels completely different when the thumb is not over the index finger. And if someone's thumb is deeper into the flight plate and they hear the advice "make sure to use thumb pressure" they might accidentally increase the risk of pronating due to the way thumb pressure feels when the thumb is deeper in the flight plate.

1719331091652.png
 
Do you mean it's usually a bandaid? Because you keep saying this in an absolute-sounding way as if it's impossible for the cue to be useful in certain cases, such as for people who have good form. My form of course needs work, but as an example, I can throw -3 to -5 nose down without turning the key, so my wrist position in those throws is probably pretty well-aligned. But turn the key also works well for me, so what is turning the key bandaiding in my case or other cases where someone can throw nose down with a pretty good wrist position without it?

Here's Kyle Klein turning the key imo at 1:35. I don't care if he is using the cue 'turn the key', he is doing the mechanic regardless of what cue he uses for it, if any. I'm not attached to that cue specifically, there can be many cues that all converge on the underlying mechanic.


In the first picture, if he opened his elbow here without supinating, he wouldn't be throwing towards the rim of the disc, he would be throwing at the bottom flight plate. The back of the hand is facing slightly upwards and then at the hit it is facing away from the chest. How did this change occur in the orientation of the back of the hand if it's not supination? This is one of many examples of pros who do this.
View attachment 343514

Pronate - supinate - pronate - he's jiggling the key.
kyle klien pronation.png
 
Pronate - supinate - pronate - he's jiggling the key.
View attachment 343544
If it's pronation and not shoulder rotation like Chris mentioned, looks like these images show it's after release? Or are you seeing it during release? If it's after it doesn't matter in that the pronation is not applying any forces on the disc. Of course the follow through does matter and is important though.
 
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If it's pronation and not shoulder rotation like Chris mentioned, looks like these images show it's after release? Or are you seeing it during release? If it's after it doesn't matter in that the pronation is not applying any forces on the disc. Of course the follow through does matter and is important though.
Forces precede motion.
 
I get that you're saying there could be imperceptible pronation force happening before we see the pronation motion but I think it would be a stretch to think there was overall more pronation force applied to the disc than supination force when you can see more supination up to and during the release.
 
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