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BH, FH Help

deyo7

Eagle Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
876
Next time get some side views as well, it's harder for me to see stuff from the back.

For FH, watch this video, especially the first 3:30ish. Try to feel that tilt and anchor with your butt/hips so you can swing through the log on that extreme hyzer angle. It's hard for me to tell but you seem pretty well balanced...but could maybe get more of this closed anchor and setup. Or maybe it'll feel very different to you. What distance do you typically throw drivers with FH?



In BH things seem to be getting wide rather than tighter/quicker. Like stride width to the target as well as right to left. Rear elbow is hanging out there wide as well during the whole throw. Generally I'd just narrow and tighten things up, but again it's hard for me to see exactly from this view. I'm interested to see the more direct advice that will come.
 
Are you related to Eric Oakley?

FH: Grip looks weak/off plane. Non-x-step, is inefficient technique, not turning your pelvis back enough, and not tilting your spine enough like the SC video SP linked above. You are setup to swing a steep anhyzer or roller here. Note how much more tilt I have and closed stance so you can still my front knee and lower arm/disc swinging level.
MIzJ1Kq.png


BH: Your are hopping backwards/looking backwards and striding the front leg backwards, instead of crossing over laterally and hopping in Hershyzer with butt lead and head turned forward to target. So you are kicking the can with the bottom of your foot instead of the top/side of the foot. You are also bending your front knee in the stride and tilted over off balance and falling/swaying over to the left tee pad side. Note how balanced and stacked my posture is below ready to squat a bunch of weight. All my joints are in alignment shoulders over hips over knees over ankles.
UHYFOHL.png

 
Next time get some side views as well, it's harder for me to see stuff from the back.

For FH, watch this video, especially the first 3:30ish. Try to feel that tilt and anchor with your butt/hips so you can swing through the log on that extreme hyzer angle. It's hard for me to tell but you seem pretty well balanced...but could maybe get more of this closed anchor and setup. Or maybe it'll feel very different to you. What distance do you typically throw drivers with FH?



In BH things seem to be getting wide rather than tighter/quicker. Like stride width to the target as well as right to left. Rear elbow is hanging out there wide as well during the whole throw. Generally I'd just narrow and tighten things up, but again it's hard for me to see exactly from this view. I'm interested to see the more direct advice that will come.

Copy that on sideview. It was one of those things where I decided it would be a good idea to film myself part way through and I got hot/tired so the sideview got cut short :)

Re FH: Yeah, I've sort of just feel lost with regard to what do I do for footwork and body positioning for FH. Looks like SW's post solidifies that. I'll think through this anchor and tilt and process again another day when I'm more fresh on how to apply. How is your positioning in relation to SC in his video?
Re FH Distance: Not far. I would guess that these two throws went about 280-maybe 300 with mid and 320 with the driver. I can only expect maybe 20 more feet consistently on a good day. The positive is that it does feel effortless and I never get sore from it.

Re: BH: Yes I agree. Not upright, nor narrow, less efficient. Good call.

Thank you for your help, Slowplastic!

Are you related to Eric Oakley?

FH: Grip looks weak/off plane. Non-x-step, is inefficient technique, not turning your pelvis back enough, and not tilting your spine enough like the SC video SP linked above. You are setup to swing a steep anhyzer or roller here. Note how much more tilt I have and closed stance so you can still my front knee and lower arm/disc swinging level.
MIzJ1Kq.png


BH: Your are hopping backwards/looking backwards and striding the front leg backwards, instead of crossing over laterally and hopping in Hershyzer with butt lead and head turned forward to target. So you are kicking the can with the bottom of your foot instead of the top/side of the foot. You are also bending your front knee in the stride and tilted over off balance and falling/swaying over to the left tee pad side. Note how balanced and stacked my posture is below ready to squat a bunch of weight. All my joints are in alignment shoulders over hips over knees over ankles.
UHYFOHL.png


Re: Oakley: Lol, that's what I thought when I saw myself.

I think I need to watch your xstep for FH and emulate, per my comments above.. don't know what I'm doing with my lower body. So turn pelvis back more in backswing & get left butt a little more forward to anchor? Tilt hopefully follow suit and hopefully will be able to keep things on plane. Re: Weak grip, this is true...I don't grip FH hard. Do you trap the crap out of it with your thumb, like Dave Dunipace says (Rip out, not slip out). I feel like if I do it's not going to go anywhere. Probably because I'm not getting enough leverage with my body positioning?

BH: Yeah, dangit… I noticed the premature turn/look/hop backwards thing too.

Thanks for taking the time to do the markups - that's helpful and makes it clear what I need to work on...

Thank you, SW. Much appreciated!
 
Are you related to Eric Oakley?
UHYFOHL.png


BH: Yeah, dangit… I noticed the premature turn/look/hop backwards thing too.

Thanks for taking the time to do the markups - that's helpful and makes it clear what I need

The Form thread we've all been waiting for! Dude, your dealing with so many issues that I have, and they're frustratingly hard to fix.

Tipping too forward over your toes is something that feels powerful, like you can really feel the pendulum rocking, but actually saps speed around a balanced and upright spine. Just like SC's analogy for a washing machine out of balance. When I started to correct this (still have to focus on this one) my shoulder rotation felt totally different. I started focusing on the rear shoulder rotating balanced around the spine, and keeping the front shoulder inside the wall. Seriously do the inside wall drill, it helped me feel the leverage from my rear foot to my front shoulder, and it's when I started throwing less flat footed. You'll feel stupid doing it, but it works. https://youtu.be/FWasFdvnGio?t=367

Hard to tell, but It also looks like you could get the disc a bit deeper in the pocket as it looks like your your hand is on the front of the disc as the elbow starts to unhinge. I highly recommend that new Bradley Walker vid accompanied by the newest Beto drill vid by HUB. Welcome to the party.
 
Re FH: Yeah, I've sort of just feel lost with regard to what do I do for footwork and body positioning for FH. Looks like SW's post solidifies that. I'll think through this anchor and tilt and process again another day when I'm more fresh on how to apply. How is your positioning in relation to SC in his video?

Re: BH: Yes I agree. Not upright, nor narrow, less efficient. Good call.

Thank you for your help, Slowplastic!

Re: Oakley: Lol, that's what I thought when I saw myself.

I think I need to watch your xstep for FH and emulate, per my comments above.. don't know what I'm doing with my lower body. So turn pelvis back more in backswing & get left butt a little more forward to anchor? Tilt hopefully follow suit and hopefully will be able to keep things on plane. Re: Weak grip, this is true...I don't grip FH hard. Do you trap the crap out of it with your thumb, like Dave Dunipace says (Rip out, not slip out). I feel like if I do it's not going to go anywhere. Probably because I'm not getting enough leverage with my body positioning?

BH: Yeah, dangit… I noticed the premature turn/look/hop backwards thing too.

Thanks for taking the time to do the markups - that's helpful and makes it clear what I need to work on...

Thank you, SW. Much appreciated!
No problemo! I actually like Oakley's form, like really, really like! Like KJ! Overall your technique is pretty good similar to Oakley, but your posture and balance are another story, just compare your balance and posture to his anywhere in the x-step and finish position, it's about balance and posture and accelerating a reciprocating pendulum momentum keeping the disc "still" or floating the disc into the power pocket/center, he looks like a friggin ballerina when his feet crossover! Get a sledgehammer and toss it effortlessly FH and BH, put your thumb on the back on the handle and sling the hammer head forward to pound the nail with your whole body and arm together! Effortless!!! :)

I do trap the disc with the thumb exactly like Dave D says. My grip was completely natural first time held a disc, hasn't changed, it "feels" exactly like my fastball grip on a baseball, the pressure on the pads on the fingers on the inside edge of the rim and thumb trapping it. It's not a tight grip using muscles, the disc is in an extremely strong position in my hand to leverage/sling the disc at will. The muscles are loose/taut/sprung to the acceleration of the disc. Same thing in my BH fan grip.
8kGyrkpm.png



 
Are you related to Eric Oakley?
UHYFOHL.png




The Form thread we've all been waiting for! Dude, your dealing with so many issues that I have, and they're frustratingly hard to fix.

Tipping too forward over your toes is something that feels powerful, like you can really feel the pendulum rocking, but actually saps speed around a balanced and upright spine. Just like SC's analogy for a washing machine out of balance. When I started to correct this (still have to focus on this one) my shoulder rotation felt totally different. I started focusing on the rear shoulder rotating balanced around the spine, and keeping the front shoulder inside the wall. Seriously do the inside wall drill, it helped me feel the leverage from my rear foot to my front shoulder, and it's when I started throwing less flat footed. You'll feel stupid doing it, but it works. https://youtu.be/FWasFdvnGio?t=367

Hard to tell, but It also looks like you could get the disc a bit deeper in the pocket as it looks like your your hand is on the front of the disc as the elbow starts to unhinge. I highly recommend that new Bradley Walker vid accompanied by the newest Beto drill vid by HUB. Welcome to the party.

Hah! Thanks for the welcome. You're more appreciated when you're late :) I picked up disc golf about when my second son was born, 2 years ago. Time for field work not always there, so I tuned into everyone else's threads because, let's be honest, all AMs do the same bad.

I know exactly what you mean with the inside swing drill/narrowing of the stance. It's so much more efficient and what my previous form relied on but I would just set the disc in place in the backswing rather than hammer swing. I really like how with SW's hammer swing (yes, that's what I'm attempting to do above) and it enables you to feel the weight of the disc. Just need to marry the two now.

I'm certain you're right on the disc deeper in the pocket/hand position there. Toward the end I settled down a little bit and was able to get a later and deeper snap. Yeah, I saw the BW video and I liked the concept but, to be honest, I think it's what got me in trouble today. Focusing on the lower arm going left and lot of other stuff goes out the window. I don't think I'm ready to focus on it until I get my narrower balance and the hammer swing worked out.
 
I know exactly what you mean with the inside swing drill/narrowing of the stance. It's so much more efficient and what my previous form relied on but I would just set the disc in place in the backswing rather than hammer swing..

I don't think the point of the inside swing drill is to narrow the stance. It's to get you to feel the leverage in the shoulder against the rear instep, and get the feel for how the shoulders should turn. It feels constricted and narrow up top, almost like your leaning back in the backswing, but the video will show your just not leaning over into the wall. When you correct that, very good things happen to the flight of the disc.

I agree with not thinking about too much at one time. Things like the Beto/closed shoulder drill to work on upper body mechanics are best practiced on their own. I work on my power pocket with standstill Nova shots. Bradley Williams has a great video for just that.

Be ready to be frustrated, and be ready to accept that you're probably wrong. :D It'll make making changes much easier.
 
I don't think the point of the inside swing drill is to narrow the stance. It's to get you to feel the leverage in the shoulder against the rear instep, and get the feel for how the shoulders should turn. It feels constricted and narrow up top, almost like your leaning back in the backswing, but the video will show your just not leaning over into the wall. When you correct that, very good things happen to the flight of the disc.
Exactly! And to "close" up the stance, you move the rear foot back(not the front foot forward) diagonally and open up the body to a bigger and bigger backswing/power pocket/swing space as you move the rear foot diagonal and shift your weight/CoG diagonally back and forth in a spiral, but you never want to lose being able to leverage/accelerate yourself and the disc forward quickly just before planting the front foot and the disc at the very end of the hit.
 
I don't think the point of the inside swing drill is to narrow the stance. It's to get you to feel the leverage in the shoulder against the rear instep, and get the feel for how the shoulders should turn. It feels constricted and narrow up top, almost like your leaning back in the backswing, but the video will show your just not leaning over into the wall. When you correct that, very good things happen to the flight of the disc.

I agree with not thinking about too much at one time. Things like the Beto/closed shoulder drill to work on upper body mechanics are best practiced on their own. I work on my power pocket with standstill Nova shots. Bradley Williams has a great video for just that.

Be ready to be frustrated, and be ready to accept that you're probably wrong. :D It'll make making changes much easier.

Well it looks like I need to watch the inside swing drill again, ha! Thanks for correcting and clarifying.
I'm already wrong! I learned from reading everyone else's threads that SW always knows best.
 
Re FH: Yeah, I've sort of just feel lost with regard to what do I do for footwork and body positioning for FH. Looks like SW's post solidifies that. I'll think through this anchor and tilt and process again another day when I'm more fresh on how to apply. How is your positioning in relation to SC in his video?
Re FH Distance: Not far. I would guess that these two throws went about 280-maybe 300 with mid and 320 with the driver. I can only expect maybe 20 more feet consistently on a good day. The positive is that it does feel effortless and I never get sore from it.

Yeah that makes sense. When I was shifting "in front" forehand it's all a forward spin/turn/push basically that just gives you some forward speed instead of continual leverage, and I was in that 325ish range with drivers. Having to snap them real hard.

So I did that exact body positioning from the Clement video, stand up and do it while the video is playing. Have something in your hand like a hammer that has weight. Make sure you angle your hips and tilt your spine so you are 50/50 distributed like he says, but oriented differently than just standing "normal". You'll notice your butt is facing targetward a bit, you are closed. When you leverage like this, if you let gravity do some work and anchor with your hips, you should feel that you can keep pulling through that downward arch because your hip position continually gives you more leverage, like the back end of a trebuchet.

Once you've felt that, you can just adjust things up until the plane is closer and closer to flat, although this may be hard to do with something heavy in your hand at indoor safe swing speed...but once you've felt it it makes sense.

As for the footwork, I don't like "walking" forward with right foot left foot steps because that opens my hips forward. I like a sideways crow hop or shuffle step, so that I can always have my hips closed and my butt kind of ahead of me, in balance of course. This gives me some momentum toward the plant but never opens me up from that position.

It's about setting yourself up so you have this leverage/counterweight, and you can continually swing through. You'll probably feel like the beginning of your swing from the backswing feels slower or you're not trying hard yet, but through the hit point you'll notice the disc rockets out more easily because you can keep pulling it through the snap.

For grip I do the parallel stacked grip, just because my fingers are then supporting each other so I don't strain them as bad. Plus I feel in that grip the disc HAS to be aligned flush with the forearm. I don't think that vs. the both fingertips on the inner rim matter for power, just make sure the disc is parallel to forearm when you pinch it. As for thumb I make sure I pinch it hard beginning of the hit/sling. That's how you keep the nose down, it is absolutely crucial to commit to that pinch and sling.

Also, any shot over 300'ish feet I don't feel like I use any more arm, I just have a more committed weight shift.
 
FH update: Long ways to go but the shuffle has helped. Still working on turning back more without tipping backwards in the backswing / staying leveraged forward but it's borderline useful again, which is nice. So thank you.

Bh: I'm coming to the realization that I need to do the drills that you prescribe if I really want to improve. So, here's a go at kick the can.

In "take 1" I noticed I was rotating open some in an effort to kick towards the right. So I did it again and tried to fix in "take 2" but do you think I'm going outside in enough? I figure probably best to stop there and see what else I'm doing wrong. I realize the left leg kick is terrible. Going through the swing without a ball and thinking about kicking with rear foot seems to really help though for whatever reason. Maybe it takes my mind off of turning back until that leg is settled...

Take 1: https://youtu.be/zDcIeHi3WsI

Take 2: https://youtu.be/txSKKTr_6M0

Thank you much
 
Frame 1 - note my rear foot is turned back and my butt is leading my head with forward spine tilt of shoulders toward knees. Your rear foot is perpendicular and head leading butt over top.

Frame 2 - note how I've exploded off the rear foot so both toes on the ground with heels way up riding the bull. Your heels are flat barely off the ground.

Frame 3 - note the angle of my rear lower leg and foot propping the body upright like a kickstand on front leg for upward trajectory.
s6Bo5Gk.png


Frame 1 - note my right foot is swung back outside/left the rear/left foot, so I have clear access to swing the right foot back forward through without the left foot in the way. You can see your left foot is in the path between your right foot and ball. Note we both have the rear foot perpendicular, however I'm aiming to the right slightly.

Frame 2 - note the difference in the feet and knees. Your heels almost on the ground and knees extended, my knees are flexed and heels are way up so I'm on tippy toes like Michael Jackson.
0NpuAxv.png

4lrdFSJ.png

 
I also don't like how your right shoulder is opening just after landing...looks like you're wanting to open the right shoulder rather than landing in balance and letting the catching and clearing of your weight start your rotation.
 
Frame 1 - note my rear foot is turned back and my butt is leading my head with forward spine tilt of shoulders toward knees. Your rear foot is perpendicular and head leading butt over top.

Frame 2 - note how I've exploded off the rear foot so both toes on the ground with heels way up riding the bull. Your heels are flat barely off the ground.

Frame 3 - note the angle of my rear lower leg and foot propping the body upright like a kickstand on front leg for upward trajectory.
s6Bo5Gk.png


Frame 1 - note my right foot is swung back outside/left the rear/left foot, so I have clear access to swing the right foot back forward through without the left foot in the way. You can see your left foot is in the path between your right foot and ball. Note we both have the rear foot perpendicular, however I'm aiming to the right slightly.

Frame 2 - note the difference in the feet and knees. Your heels almost on the ground and knees extended, my knees are flexed and heels are way up so I'm on tippy toes like Michael Jackson.
0NpuAxv.png

4lrdFSJ.png

OK, really helpful thank you. I can see and think I can fix swinging right foot more outside and lean over more / spine tilt over knees. Think I can also get on my toes more, which, yes, that makes sense for loading and leveraging forward.

Not sure if I fully get the kick stand leg, flexed legs yet.

I'm sure there's more wrong here. I'm likely leaning too far forward at times now (?) and should I still crush the can? Or just work on trying to flex on toes for this drill?

I wish it were easier to overlay some MJ on this:
https://youtu.be/mGMP8l2uR4c
 
Crush both ways, you want your rear heel down in the backswing/kick to stabilize everything through a solid ankle braced to the ground to transition forward with rear heel going up/forward. Mirrored forward into the plant with front heel down to stabilize everything through your ankle. So your feet should be trading positions of athleticism and stabilizing - pushing the heel/weight up/forward from the toes and dropping the heel/weight forward into the ground on the opposite foot for stabilizing the post of the swing.

Riding the Bull:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0&t=74s

Watch my feet in Slow Motion Drill - heels trading up/down in slow motion using plantar flexion in both feet to shift everything lagged forward out of the transition ground up.
 
Crush both ways, you want your rear heel down in the backswing/kick to stabilize everything through a solid ankle braced to the ground to transition forward with rear heel going up/forward. Mirrored forward into the plant with front heel down to stabilize everything through your ankle. So your feet should be trading positions of athleticism and stabilizing - pushing the heel/weight up/forward from the toes and dropping the heel/weight forward into the ground on the opposite foot for stabilizing the post of the swing.

Riding the Bull:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0&t=74s

Watch my feet in Slow Motion Drill - heels trading up/down in slow motion using plantar flexion in both feet to shift everything lagged forward out of the transition ground up.

I gotcha, I gotcha. Good stuff. Riding the bull like that might have to be added to the workout regimen. I can feel the burn after doing that a bit.
 
I know the video's terrible and should have turned sideways, etc. Hadn't played in awhile so was trying to take a quick snap to see what form looks like.

Appears that I drop my elbow in the power pocket so to speak (see screenshot). What else is glaringly obvious?

 

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Angle is tough. Kind of looks like your elbow only moves east/inward from the top of backswing. From the top of backswing I want my elbow to move west/outward so the disc can swing in behind it before redirecting.
 
Angle is tough. Kind of looks like your elbow only moves east/inward from the top of backswing. From the top of backswing I want my elbow to move west/outward so the disc can swing in behind it before redirecting.
Yeah apologies on angle. Yep, could see that. Would thinking about pronating wrist a little to force elbow out be a good way to go about it as far as potential solution? Think that might prevent elbow from coming east and dipping (?)...

Thanks SW!
 

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