Can anyone throw 500'?

[Brychanus]

Enjoy some fitness gab with an enthusiast! Add any more nuggets you'd like to share. If fitness is a foundation of distance potential & a healthy life, I'm here for it.

This year I have done more workouts and especially some mobility work and a lot of stretching to get a better basis to work from.

Nice. I reckon it's frequently underestimated and underdone for most people.

Especially doing mobility work that goes through full RoM of a joint is really beneficial as it practices just moving and controlling that joint consciously.

I thought "ding ding ding" with pairing the full RoM with conscious control, which (for adults) often makes it easier to gain goal-relevant automaticity (like a DG throw) over time.

Just doing this one a couple of times made it much easier to control the movement of my hips in a throw.

This one looks really good!

I noticed in the past few weeks I can try out new moves like this much more easily than I could even just a few months ago, and the symmetry has improved. I can easily move into and out of ranges of motion or plop down in a position that would have torn something before. Moves and stretches and static holds like those are awesome. Mostly just a public reminder that a lot of changes just require dedication and patience.

From doing workouts focused on muscle, I have noticed that an occasional workout (like every 2 weeks) for my rotator cuff was enough to allow for a high volume of throws without shoulder pain (but still exhaustion after a long day). The first 2 exercises were recommended to me by 2 former handball players that played a lot as it helps to stabilise the joint when doing it with a high volume but not a ton of resistance. I would only add a towel between the upper arm and the body so you have something to push off of and not collapse the shoulder.

I had done quite a few of these off my wall anchor like that, plus added a lot of lumberjacks and rotational moves against the resistance band. It gave me way more control, more resistance/ability to transfer force, and was actually pretty fun. You can also do them a little more dynamically/"explosively" (but still emphasize form/smoothness), which seems to have made it less likely that I get weird collapses or kinks when throwing, and I usually don't feel sore even if I haven't practiced distance recently. I also think the dynamic variants have given my otherwise rigid/elastically inert body the feel for what athletic looseness and potential explosiveness means, and how you can reconcile low-effort with high-output based on the "right kind" of fitness and motor control backbone.

Also in the spirit of the general thread, a lot of casual discgolfers lack a solid athletic background and struggle with exercises that, to me, seem easy like doing lateral lunges. In all the sports I did with a trainer and a regular schedule, like a third of a practice sessions was dedicated to workouts, another third to drills and the last third if not less was doing the actual sport.

Well, my own form coach was apparently second only to Michael Phelps in swimming back in his day and played baseball etc. That gives you a deep physical and motor system reservoir to build on. But he still had to do a lot to work on the brain/motor control end of it for DG. I was never that good at any athletic task at any point in my life. In neuropsychology I was always fascinated that our brains are generally good at learning, but they are often not as good at generalizing any one bit of motor learning (e.g., teaching your nondominant hand to write if you are older than about 4-5 years old).

In my case, and in response to some concerning wear and tear, I finally got wiser and adjusted my expectations and habits accordingly. What still interests me the most is that laying down tons of new muscle memory and control means that even playing infrequently I can get back to near-ceiling somewhat quickly, and all the deliberate cross-training is just helping reinforce good athleticism in a body that didn't ever really have it in spades. That has also made me relax a little more when I play, and I realize that if I ever want to seriously work on distance I just have to go out and pick up where I left off.

Recently I have been continuing to build up my split-leg move strength, which has been making my knees feel much better, and added a series of weighted hops. There are a lot of data relating one-legged hop/jump performance to overall upper-end athletics, so the progression is to build that stabilization and peak strength/RoM with split-legged moves that shore up the posterior chain (often deficient in adults), get my nearly 40 y/o legs more used to bouncing/resisting/reacting to the ground (reactive strength index boost), and then when those easy for me, progress to the one-legged hops. I've only been doing this once per week. After literally the first time my knees felt nearly 90% better, and I've been surprised how much better my legs and hips carry me already. There's a little more easy "pop" in my DG too.

Last part of my novella: I enjoy the Nourish Move Love series from Lindsey Bomgren and the WeckMethod club series. Both of them have a mix of mobility, potential high peak strength training under cardiovascular load, and are very time-efficient for a busy person. They were surprisingly challenging at first, and now my body seems to function much better overall just doing them a few times per week. I also do the NML workouts with my wife, so it's good bonding too. Toward the beginning of the week I emphasize lower volume and higher weight (both in full RoM and isolating and problem spots), then toward the end of the week I emphasize more repetitions and mobility anticipating the chance to get out to sneak in a round.

Yoking it to real DG as a reward also seems to be helping me stay pretty motivated when I finally get outside rather than feeling like I'm just fucking around in my basement.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I had done quite a few of these off my wall anchor like that, plus added a lot of lumberjacks and rotational moves against the resistance band. It gave me way more control, more resistance/ability to transfer force, and was actually pretty fun. You can also do them a little more dynamically/"explosively" (but still emphasize form/smoothness), which seems to have made it less likely that I get weird collapses or kinks when throwing, and I usually don't feel sore even if I haven't practiced distance recently. I also think the dynamic variants have given my otherwise rigid/elastically inert body the feel for what athletic looseness and potential explosiveness means, and how you can reconcile low-effort with high-output based on the "right kind" of fitness and motor control backbone.

You do the lumberjacks with a horizontal resistance then? As in pulling on the band that is tied to a post?

I also did wood choppers the way Nick instructed them, but didnt notice much gain from those, but I also dont have much of a feeling for turning the shoulders in a throw so maybe lacking technique is the issue.

Well, my own form coach was apparently second only to Michael Phelps in swimming back in his day and played baseball etc. That gives you a deep physical and motor system reservoir to build on. But he still had to do a lot to work on the brain/motor control end of it for DG. I was never that good at any athletic task at any point in my life. In neuropsychology I was always fascinated that our brains are generally good at learning, but they are often not as good at generalizing any one bit of motor learning (e.g., teaching your nondominant hand to write if you are older than about 4-5 years old).

I used to underestimate how much impact even doing some sports has, especially as a child and in adolescence. I would put myself in the same boat as you as I have also never been good in any sport, but I did lots of different ones and did those regularly which has resulted in a good baseline level. Discgolf is still a whole other beast and adapting those skills over to dg is a lot of work.

Recently I have been continuing to build up my split-leg move strength, which has been making my knees feel much better, and added a series of weighted hops. There are a lot of data relating one-legged hop/jump performance to overall upper-end athletics, so the progression is to build that stabilization and peak strength/RoM with split-legged moves that shore up the posterior chain (often deficient in adults), get my nearly 40 y/o legs more used to bouncing/resisting/reacting to the ground (reactive strength index boost), and then when those easy for me, progress to the one-legged hops. I've only been doing this once per week. After literally the first time my knees felt nearly 90% better, and I've been surprised how much better my legs and hips carry me already. There's a little more easy "pop" in my DG too.

In some thread sidewinder suggested doing one-legged squats and if one cant do those, it is probably gonna be really damn difficult to get balanced on a single leg while also resisting the brace.

When you say one-legged hops, are you talking about the ones like in the paige pierce gif that often gets posted, or just jumping around on a single leg, jumping on stuff and so on?

Thanks for the link, im gonna check those out. I just gotta be a bit conscious to not get too serious about this, as a regular workout schedule seems to kill any motivation to actually follow through with it.

Also how do you conceptualise doing mobility work at max RoM, functional mobility like lunges and stretches? Do you do each of those for different goals or prefer one over the other? My conceptualisation is that stretches help lengthening muscle fibers and tendons and therefor allow for a greater range of motion with considerable delay (as in multiple months) as tendons are very slow to adapt. So I opted to do lots of stretches over the year so I could work on some max RoM exercises in the off-season and build some strength in my new RoM. Functional mobility exercises I would do more as needed and use them like drills and some sidewinder drills are also in that category for me like the double dragon.

 

[Brychanus]

You do the lumberjacks with a horizontal resistance then? As in pulling on the band that is tied to a post?

Back when I was in PT for my knees, I told him I was serious about developing in DG and he added more exercises to help my whole system. When we did that, he implemented some ball toss and cross-body drills. Then, he added the lumberjacks crossing from e.g., up and to the right to down and the the left, and vice versa for each side of the body. In hindsight I now know he was basically training the same function of the core and oblique loading you see in high level form in the BH but also to one extent or another in most throwing sports (the "x-factor"). It made me learn to control the coil and force in those diagonal directions forcing me to coil my posture along with it. After that, I started using the door anchor and elastic bands at home to go diagonal, fully horizontal, and nearly fully vertical. Then when I went to my two and one handed club swings, I learned to basically carry that same action all the way through the club head, and then to the disc. All that posture control and increased chain fluidity and power kept building on each other & sidewinder drills!

I also did wood choppers the way Nick instructed them, but didnt notice much gain from those, but I also dont have much of a feeling for turning the shoulders in a throw so maybe lacking technique is the issue.

If you forced me to guess the answer is "at least somewhat." My own approach to form as you know has deep roots in applied optimal swing theory, but that only works as well as I also find ways to get it all into throwing a disc. Not easy. I would also say most workouts I do are more likely to help reduce effort and the floor of throwing/reduce injury risk, but the distance effects are always task specific/require improvements on technique in the real throwing context. The potential ceiling has crept up over time but accessing and reinforcing it with the disc/technique is what takes the most patience (for me, anyway).

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]I used to underestimate how much impact even doing some sports has, especially as a child and in adolescence. I would put myself in the same boat as you as I have also never been good in any sport, but I did lots of different ones and did those regularly which has resulted in a good baseline level. Discgolf is still a whole other beast and adapting those skills over to dg is a lot of work.[/COLOR]

Heard that!

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]In some thread sidewinder suggested doing one-legged squats and if one cant do those, it is probably gonna be really damn difficult to get balanced on a single leg while also resisting the brace.[/COLOR]

Yes, honestly it has often occurred to me that the first thing that should happen in any form critique for someone getting serious is a basic functional assessment like that. I literally could not stand up out of a chair on my left leg when I started. No wonder that's a contributing factor to why moving off my left side has always been harder.

When you say one-legged hops, are you talking about the ones like in the paige pierce gif that often gets posted, or just jumping around on a single leg, jumping on stuff and so on?

I still do both (plus a lot of "kick the can" recently, which continues to help especially with some of my transition off the rear side issues).

The skaters help focus especially on the "north-south" dynamic balance and resistance and the related resistance chains. Almost any adult I have ever seen is deficient in this if they didn't already do it growing up. At one point we saw a post about skaters with a medicine ball, SW does them with hammers etc - I just tend to prioritize form with whatever version I'm doing and then gradually add force assisted by gravity until the move starts the break, then spend some time in that zone for a bit. Just a couple minutes at a time helps.

The more recent add are directly vertical hops like Kristian Kuoksa implements. The idea for him or someone like me with shorter levers is that more peak resistance and reactive resistance increases the upper limit the system can handle as it approaches peak force and quickness (and helps makes lower effort throwing even easier/less wear and tear). It's just easier to do that through the strongest part of the chain when you're already aligned with gravity. Even if people argue about the net horizontal/vertical forces or how they're supposed to work, having well-conditioned and reactive legs for the body mass appears to have cross-sports predictive validity (and again, protects the body).

The Tread athletics video is onto something too that the long-levered people can generally get away with less of that (though may benefit to an extent). E.g., Paul Oman might benefit from different training practices from me in that case. Merela agreed when I hypothesized that I should shift my training more like I described above due to my history and body type, and that there is a reason Kuoksa is way off the charts with leg RSI even compared to similar speed throwing people with longer levers. Curious how much it matters in say a year from now for me specifically, but early signs are promising in my case. And frankly I'm just happy to not feel as tired after any given round.

Thanks for the link, im gonna check those out. I just gotta be a bit conscious to not get too serious about this, as a regular workout schedule seems to kill any motivation to actually follow through with it.

I might seem serious and OCPD (I am, but slightly more chill lately) but I couldn't agree more. I started to put a big "fun" quotient on workouts and DG again. Unsurprisingly it made me even more likely to just get up and workout when I find a spare 20 mins after the kids go to sleep and I learned more just by trying a few new things. And for whatever reason I find it a lot of fun and therapeutic to jump up and down with weights so I'll just keep doing that anyway lmao. I was kind of surprised how fast early improvements started to happen so that helped too.

 

[Brychanus]

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]Also how do you conceptualise doing mobility work at max RoM, functional mobility like lunges and stretches? Do you do each of those for different goals or prefer one over the other? My conceptualisation is that stretches help lengthening muscle fibers and tendons and therefor allow for a greater range of motion with considerable delay (as in multiple months) as tendons are very slow to adapt. So I opted to do lots of stretches over the year so I could work on some max RoM exercises in the off-season and build some strength in my new RoM. Functional mobility exercises I would do more as needed and use them like drills and some sidewinder drills are also in that category for me like the double dragon.[/COLOR]

This is a great question and I would like to keep talking/learning about it. Sorry if this is a little long but I realized there's a lot of applied theory in here:

I do stretch statically and dynamically often to try and push out RoM, often with assistance from walls or weights etc. Two specific areas of attack:

RoM, Leg rehab + pushing new limits:
I tend to use any given lunge type as increasing RoM, and then to move up peak force. What has worked is using no weight or lighter weights to gradually increase RoM (all the way to near-kneeling isometrics and making the stance wider, and including some alternating squat jumps, whatever I feel like mixing in), then recently shifted back up to the big dumbbells and gradually let the RoM catch up.

New moves should take your history into account to an extent. For me, I used to have a very strong leg press, but never got my deadlifts and squats where they "should" have been relative to e.g., my bench press. I always tended to get a little hurt with those other two lifts and I tended to do less of them. Plus, two-legged moves glued to the ground were part of my neuromuscular problem for DG in the first place. So I kind of suspect my recent gains in the legs and hips are a lot about getting closer to where my peak strength used to be in my early 20s, but now I'm getting better at stabilizing the loads moving from one leg to the other due to lunges, drills, and jumping. I also initially pushed it too far with the heavier dumbells and strained a glute badly a few months ago, and realized that I also had to slow down to also let some of the connective tissues in the more minor muscles catch up to the rehabbing workhorses. My guess is that the big muscle tendons were in pretty decent shape from a while ago, but the little guys just needed more time to develop in the first place. Now "suddenly" everything is just working better together, but it's probably just due to that combo of recovered strength + new development in support muscles and connective tissues.

My favorite new lunge exercise is a variant where you lunge then "reactively" get back to the starting position as quickly as possible. The point is that you should be using the reactive strength to move you back with your posture. I am pretty sure when I came back to Sidewinder's whip step recently it's part of why it immediately was getting me more out of my move. Interestingly, this one is "day dependent." Some days I kind of feel "springy" and they work really well and I can really get into them. Other days my body feels kinda rusty and sluggish and uncertain controlling them, in which case I just chill and move back to the jumps, which are a little easier to stabilize.

Last: I also sometimes do staggered stance dumbell deadlifts which have been awesome for the posterior chain on a given leg. It also helps train hamstrings while standing - last time I used a hamstring curl machine I was kind of upset at how weak they had become - they used to be very strong, so I know deskbound life had taken a toll there.

RoM and core/upper body:
I own no stock in WeckMethod, but after SW got me into their "royal coil" drill, I swear that 4lb club has been my favorite workout purchase in 20 years. Recently, I've been messing with max RoM motions, but really trying to pump up the force/momentum. I like taking the thing two-handed roughly through where my golf swing would be, then making it move as fast as possible with the whole chain. Every time I do it I find little new advantages and it feels pretty cool when the entire body and gravity and the club are syncing well. I'm increasingly convinced that that last little stretch at the peak of the RoM has an outsize effect on the move. Lots of SW drills can help you find it - I tend to need a little assistance from the club or something else to find it. The nice thing about a club is that it's also naturally getting you that loaded stretch as you add force/speed because the effective weight is higher as you go faster, so the body learns to kind of use that as a goal and a metronome over time.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Yes, honestly it has often occurred to me that the first thing that should happen in any form critique for someone getting serious is a basic functional assessment like that. I literally could not stand up out of a chair on my left leg when I started. No wonder that's a contributing factor to why moving off my left side has always been harder.



The more recent add are directly vertical hops like Kristian Kuoksa implements. The idea for him or someone like me with shorter levers is that more peak resistance and reactive resistance increases the upper limit the system can handle as it approaches peak force and quickness (and helps makes lower effort throwing even easier/less wear and tear). It's just easier to do that through the strongest part of the chain when you're already aligned with gravity. Even if people argue about the net horizontal/vertical forces or how they're supposed to work, having well-conditioned and reactive legs for the body mass appears to have cross-sports predictive validity (and again, protects the body).

Do you have any baseline in mind? Being able to do skates, one legged squats, different lunges, balancing on one leg would be in it for me for anyone looking to work on good distance. Im not sure what kind of exercises would be in it for upper body and the shoulder. Maybe something like Tread Athletics did for layback could be adapted, although I think that mostly applies for forehand. Im not sure the backhand needs a lot of range of motion in the shoulder but maybe I never encountered that as range of motion in my shoulder seems to be one of my better areas.



With the second one you just gave me the pass to not work on that stuff Although jumping on stuff seems like a fun workout.

RoM, Leg rehab + pushing new limits:
I tend to use any given lunge type as increasing RoM, and then to move up peak force. What has worked is using no weight or lighter weights to gradually increase RoM (all the way to near-kneeling isometrics and making the stance wider, and including some alternating squat jumps, whatever I feel like mixing in), then recently shifted back up to the big dumbbells and gradually let the RoM catch up.

Can you explain how lunges are working on RoM? When I do various lunges they are mostly difficult because it is difficult to do them smoothly and control them and pushing up again really works on strength. And my legs are probably the area I need the most work on in terms of range of motion.

The way I read the rest of your answer you mostly do what I would understand as functional mobility - motions that double up as a workout and are not strictly looking for end of range of motion like that hips video I linked - and you also seem to value that kind of exercise the most. Maybe because it is also time efficient.

 

[Brychanus]

Do you have any baseline in mind? Being able to do skates, one legged squats, different lunges, balancing on one leg would be in it for me for anyone looking to work on good distance.

These are all good tests - depth of squat, ability to coil into rear side effortlessly balanced on rear side and transition fluidly to front side like SW shows with a golf club in "some swing drills." Almost anyone I have watched do DD suggests that it is also a diagnostic for certain RoM issues on top of its balance and sequence drill use. A lot of people have some kind of rigidity or sawed off motion [COLOR=var(--text)]somewhere that doesn't just look like a motor or balance problem.[/COLOR]

Im not sure what kind of exercises would be in it for upper body and the shoulder. Maybe something like Tread Athletics did for layback could be adapted, although I think that mostly applies for forehand. Im not sure the backhand needs a lot of range of motion in the shoulder but maybe I never encountered that as range of motion in my shoulder seems to be one of my better areas.

Agree re: layback maybe being more FH. I should acknowledge that some people object to the idea that the BH is a mirrored FH. I learned to develop mine with the mirroring idea though, so I tend to work on RoM that way (though a bit more on that below).

The reason I use clubs also as an RoM tool is that, especially if you swing them one handed and keep building momentum, the fastest maneuver naturally starts to bring you into the longest RoM in each direction of you allow the weight of the head to pull you at the apex of the move. If you also allow it to connect to the weight shift, it will help coil into the rear side, and then enhance the elastic RoM stretching you out into the shift (more oblique and shoulder arm RoM). It took me a lot of door frame drilling to get the point of that last part.

I agree generally that the RoM of the shoulder itself in the BH direction tends not to be very large from the backswing to the release (there's some contraction as the shoulder retracts, but like people were talking about on the tech disc thread, it also seems to involve a lot of stabilization), though it does tend to become quite large into follow through.

With the second one you just gave me the pass to not work on that stuff Although jumping on stuff seems like a fun workout.

Yeah, my approach there is especially because of basically starting rebuilding our of rehab and with an unusual body distribution/deficiencies otherwise. There are some ceiling pushing ideas in there but a lot of people in a normative range of function or on the other side of the athletic bell curve or body types probably don't need to worry about it too much.

Can you explain how lunges are working on RoM? When I do various lunges they are mostly difficult because it is difficult to do them smoothly and control them and pushing up again really works on strength. And my legs are probably the area I need the most work on in terms of range of motion.

I should probably find a picture or vid, but I do some conventional looking lunges, plus lunges with modified stance widths, more depth in reverse lunges, more relative load on the anterior posterior chain, etc. you can imagine for instance a lunge approaching a straddle position. Those variants tend to give you strength closer to the extended phase of the move even if as you observe they don't tap absolute RoM. Approach cautiously at first though lol.

For absolute RoM I have been still dipping into pitching stretches and some of my old martial arts stretches when I was able to kick over my head etc. I like those also for DG because they also often involve being posted or moving off a supporting leg. Full range one or two legged squats also are kind of an underrated RoM IMO. I went to my annual checkup and the doctor was surprised how deep I could get at my age with no resistance or discomfort, and could hang out down there and shift around like a catcher kind of indefinitely for some of the tests, which I suppose makes sense given what I'd been doing recently. Wouldn't have been able to just a bit ago.

The way I read the rest of your answer you mostly do what I would understand as functional mobility - motions that double up as a workout and are not strictly looking for end of range of motion like that hips video I linked - and you also seem to value that kind of exercise the most. Maybe because it is also time efficient.

Yeah I think that's mostly right, especially for efficiency recently. I usually still use them to tap a little deeper into the RoM than a conventional lift, but that still is partly or mostly an emphasis on strength or dynamics. If you are seeking just the full RoM some of the swing and door frame or DD moves or your hip moves are great. Any moves that also use just a couple points of weight allowing you to relax into the peak RoM and then contract elastically out of the move are nice too- this is the "let it go into the backswing" idea among others. The RoM is more valuable if it also connects to that action, possibly.

Knowing that leg RoM is your thing right now I'll poke around a bit. Is it all directions of motion or are any especially rough?

 

[HyzerRoc]

Yeah, my approach there is especially because of basically starting rebuilding our of rehab and with an unusual body distribution/deficiencies otherwise. There are some ceiling pushing ideas in there but a lot of people in a normative range of function or on the other side of the athletic bell curve or body types probably don't need to worry about it too much.

So I guess any work on the upper body should mostly focus on strength/stabilisation of the shoulder and doing swing drills/weck stuff (or anything akin to it) to develop the ability to control the movements, even through ranges of motion one is weak in?

I should probably find a picture or vid, but I do some conventional looking lunges, plus lunges with modified stance widths, more depth in reverse lunges, more relative load on the anterior posterior chain, etc. you can imagine for instance a lunge approaching a straddle position. Those variants tend to give you strength closer to the extended phase of the move even if as you observe they don't tap absolute RoM. Approach cautiously at first though lol.

Thats a nice idea. I kind of abandoned lunges as I could do regular ones smooth ones so this seems like a good adaptation.

Knowing that leg RoM is your thing right now I'll poke around a bit. Is it all directions of motion or are any especially rough?

As a short background, I swam and did track for a couple of years, played basketball a couple and kayaking too. Was not among the better ones among peers in any of these and everything was as a kid or in adolescence. I have also ridden a bike up till now, also doing some long tours and also do some road biking.

Worst area is probably the hamstrings, I cant even sit upright on the floor with legs just laying flat and the start of the year I could not reach the floor while standing, hands being about 10 centimeters off the floor still when the muscles already had some give. Now I can reach the floor at least. Kicking above the head like you could do sound crazy to me. I can kick like to my hips and thats it. This also limits me in DD. Stretches in other directions, like side to side lunges or forward ones are not great but not bad either. I also tried a pancake stretch and I cant even get close to upright in it. Though I suspect that it also indicates that I have some lacking mobility in my hips and pelvis.



Any squats are fine, on 2 legs I can reach the floor and get up without problems, I can bring up my knees to my chest without problems and apparently my ankles have a pretty wide range.

Concerning hips, im ER dominant but only slightly and in IR exercises like this one my knee cant quite reach the floor.



Hip flexors are on the good side and finally my pelvis and lower back seem to be fine as well as I can lay almost flat on a road bike which seems to mostly involves a mobile lower back, ability to tilt the pelvis forward and strong shoulders.

Anything that sticks out to you here? Im trying to work mostly on my tight hamstrings and stretching in lunges.

 

[Brychanus]

So I guess any work on the upper body should mostly focus on strength/stabilisation of the shoulder and doing swing drills/weck stuff (or anything akin to it) to develop the ability to control the movements, even through ranges of motion one is weak in?

Unprofessional opinion, of course, but I'd say "yes" and continue to develop the other goods within the enlarging RoM incrementally.

Thats a nice idea. I kind of abandoned lunges as I could do regular ones smooth ones so this seems like a good adaptation.

Yes, I did that for a while too, then I realized there was a much larger space to explore. For me it also makes me less bored.

As a short background, I swam and did track for a couple of years, played basketball a couple and kayaking too. Was not among the better ones among peers in any of these and everything was as a kid or in adolescence. I have also ridden a bike up till now, also doing some long tours and also do some road biking.

Good news I guess is you at least had that motor training! Swimming seems especially good for developing that reciprocal fundamental pattern in a long Rom (though more "vertical" than "horizontal").

Worst area is probably the hamstrings, I cant even sit upright on the floor with legs just laying flat and the start of the year I could not reach the floor while standing, hands being about 10 centimeters off the floor still when the muscles already had some give. Now I can reach the floor at least. Kicking above the head like you could do sound crazy to me. I can kick like to my hips and thats it. This also limits me in DD. Stretches in other directions, like side to side lunges or forward ones are not great but not bad either. I also tried a pancake stretch and I cant even get close to upright in it. Though I suspect that it also indicates that I have some lacking mobility in my hips and pelvis.

You mentioned you're slightly ER below, but I imagine even within that natural resting range you should be able to get flattish. Even now I can plop right into that position but I feel a little tight in the hamstrings at first. I think ideally you'd be able to do it without tension/resistance (mine undoubtedly comes from sitting in chairs a lot of the time, so I try to consciously switch to standing desk and move my feet/stretch my hammies sometimes).

The kicking RoM is related to DG BH as follows: obviously you don't need to be able to a sidekick at head level or higher, which most people can't. However, Merela had some data that were pretty clearly showing that most high-level throwers' max distance form has a stance width of around half their height. Even in his drill swing Gibson is somewhere around that stance, as are Calvin and McBeth below, etc. Gibson and McBeth also have somewhat to very positive ape indices; Calvin's is perhaps maybe not as positive but he is of course tall and well-levered overall (and looks pretty quick-twitchy otherwise).

So e.g., I am 6'1'' with only a 30" inseam, so if that idea holds my "ideal" stance is probably slightly less than 36" (since my limbs are shorter than average). For most athletic motions, you want to be able to easily move past that range, but it's probably not necessary to get all the way to a full straddle like I could when I was kicking regularly. You just need to be able to do it without fighting your own muscles/binding against the RoM. Experimenting with the plant foot leading you slightly more and "braking" forward momentum will help you figure out if your body is resisting doing it in the "ideal" athletic RoM, I think.

Any squats are fine, on 2 legs I can reach the floor and get up without problems, I can bring up my knees to my chest without problems and apparently my ankles have a pretty wide range.

Nice. Can you do this effortlessly in whatever natural angle your legs/pelvis move?

Concerning hips, im ER dominant but only slightly and in IR exercises like this one my knee cant quite reach the floor.

Here I'm less certain, but if you're ER I think anatomically that move is either harder in general or (and perhaps more likely) you will do it in what looks like a different exact position, but ideally you'd be able to nudge them down to the mat. I also lost some of this RoM in my mid 30s and gained most of it back w/ the following:

1. Find whether it's more comfortable on one side or the other.
2. Test the peak RoM on the better side.
3. Relax into it - try to let the muscles go just past the point where you feel a bit of resistance, gently relax more. It's ok to use a hand to gently encourage it, but don't push hard/risk injury.
4. Bounce into it - not completely "ballistic", but many people forget that most motions are actually slightly stretching everything at the end of the move. Since this position is probably difficult for most people, they get too rigid and block the ability to loosen up and achieve the bounce (which is also part of athletic motion). Again, gentle and small, especially at first.
5. Same on the weaker side so you can get a sense for how asymmetric you are and if you need to add more focus there at first.
6. Do a couple sets, alternating starting with the weaker/smaller RoM side vs. stronger/bigger RoM side.

You don't need to go crazy with this (and shouldn't) - just a couple minutes a day or every other day seems to have a good effect over time. I can now drop the floor immediately in this position moving either way and quickly now, pretty close to when I was serious about martial arts- I would have torn something a few months ago without using the procedure above. Again, not sure about ER specifically but if you're trying a progression it might look like this.

Hip flexors are on the good side and finally my pelvis and lower back seem to be fine as well as I can lay almost flat on a road bike which seems to mostly involves a mobile lower back, ability to tilt the pelvis forward and strong shoulders.

Nice!

Anything that sticks out to you here? Im trying to work mostly on my tight hamstrings and stretching in lunges.

Thinking about the rest: I'm wondering if you want to start trying some (gentle) ballistic leg swings if you haven't already. Don't try to force them too far past where you start to feel a little resistance at first & gradually take them higher.

There is some controversy about the benefits of static vs. ballistic stretches. My main takeaway is "be informed and be safe."

The ballistic stretches were instrumental in developing my peak RoM in motion for kicks - one problem with static stretches as above is that people often still have motor inhibition/resistance near the peak RoM and eventually get stuck there. I see this happen in flexibility forum posts elsewhere all the time. I do the leg swings forward and back and side to side when I warm up for a round somewhat past what I need to do for throwing. I recovered much of my previous RoM after a few weeks/months. Doesn't need to be elite martial arts RoM, just enough to get past where you'll naturally want to move for a good DG move.

 

[Nick Pacific]

In some thread sidewinder suggested doing one-legged squats and if one cant do those, it is probably gonna be really damn difficult to get balanced on a single leg while also resisting the brace.

When you say one-legged hops, are you talking about the ones like in the paige pierce gif that often gets posted, or just jumping around on a single leg, jumping on stuff and so on?

Those one legged hops and similar exercises are all just movements that belong under the umbrella of plyometric exercises. I would suggest researching plyometrics and starting there, go for the beginner ones first. Single leg stuff is in the more advanced categories, so I'd work up to that first.

Plyometrics are far and beyond the most important exercises for developing fast twitch muscle fibers that generate speed and athletic power. It's what all the top trainers are pushing and it's what all the top athletes are mostly involved in nowadays, in addition to traditional weight bearing stuff, mobility movements, sport specific skill training and traditional yoga movements. I'd focus on those 5 main categories, with an emphasis on plyometrics, if I wanted to build athleticism for disc golf.

 

[Kennets]

So wait, if people can't do a pistol squat or a Bulgarian split squat, they can't brace properly?

 

[HyzerRoc]

You mentioned you're slightly ER below, but I imagine even within that natural resting range you should be able to get flattish. Even now I can plop right into that position but I feel a little tight in the hamstrings at first. I think ideally you'd be able to do it without tension/resistance (mine undoubtedly comes from sitting in chairs a lot of the time, so I try to consciously switch to standing desk and move my feet/stretch my hammies sometimes).

Just checked, and I still cant really sit straight up, even with my improvements in hamstrings. My lower back is still at an angle to the floor. How far can you go in this one? (sidenote, PTs recommend doing hamstring stretches while laying and the floor, and put up one leg at a time against a wall or other solid object)

The kicking RoM is related to DG BH as follows: obviously you don't need to be able to a sidekick at head level or higher, which most people can't. However, Merela had some data that were pretty clearly showing that most high-level throwers' max distance form has a stance width of around half their height. Even in his drill swing Gibson is somewhere around that stance, as are Calvin and McBeth below, etc. Gibson and McBeth also have somewhat to very positive ape indices; Calvin's is perhaps maybe not as positive but he is of course tall and well-levered overall (and looks pretty quick-twitchy otherwise).

So e.g., I am 6'1'' with only a 30" inseam, so if that idea holds my "ideal" stance is probably slightly less than 36" (since my limbs are shorter than average). For most athletic motions, you want to be able to easily move past that range, but it's probably not necessary to get all the way to a full straddle like I could when I was kicking regularly. You just need to be able to do it without fighting your own muscles/binding against the RoM. Experimenting with the plant foot leading you slightly more and "braking" forward momentum will help you figure out if your body is resisting doing it in the "ideal" athletic RoM, I think.

Thats an interesting rule of thumb. I am about the same height as you, but with an ~35 inseam. When I measure out 36" on the ground and try to do a standstill in that stance, it seems impossible and while I could probably make my stance that wide in an x-step, I would not be able to control the movement and more or less let momentum carry me through. Guess that means lunges and other leg RoM related exercises are on the menu.

Nice. Can you do this effortlessly in whatever natural angle your legs/pelvis move?

It is difficult to tell how wide apart his feet really are here, I can put them further apart than my hip and still get to the floor, wider and it gets tough to get to the floor as my legs become weak in that position. And Matty seemingly does this because its comfortable for him
Can you get into his position?

Here I'm less certain, but if you're ER I think anatomically that move is either harder in general or (and perhaps more likely) you will do it in what looks like a different exact position, but ideally you'd be able to nudge them down to the mat. I also lost some of this RoM in my mid 30s and gained most of it back w/ the following:

Thanks for the instruction, im gonna try that out. and its good to have a goal in mind.

Thinking about the rest: I'm wondering if you want to start trying some (gentle) ballistic leg swings if you haven't already. Don't try to force them too far past where you start to feel a little resistance at first & gradually take them higher.

First one was actually recommended and instructed by the PT for the knee injury. However she instructed me do to the kicks bare footed on the floor, arms just against the body so I have to stabilise with the knee, while bending the knee a bit more and flexing the arch of my foot to build up some foot muscles. Progression would then add a yoga matt, then some thick mat and so on to make it harder to balance on the floor.

The point of the second one is to use the hip to drive the swing? He also seems to turn his pelvis quite a bit on the swings? Feels a bit like the leg swing in DD and kick the ball and is also difficult to control at first.

Im also gonna try those out, thanks.

There is some controversy about the benefits of static vs. ballistic stretches. My main takeaway is "be informed and be safe."

The ballistic stretches were instrumental in developing my peak RoM in motion for kicks - one problem with static stretches as above is that people often still have motor inhibition/resistance near the peak RoM and eventually get stuck there. I see this happen in flexibility forum posts elsewhere all the time. I do the leg swings forward and back and side to side when I warm up for a round somewhat past what I need to do for throwing. I recovered much of my previous RoM after a few weeks/months. Doesn't need to be elite martial arts RoM, just enough to get past where you'll naturally want to move for a good DG move.

Thats also one area that confused me when trying to figure out what to actually do for my RoM as people are usually on board with stretching or strictly against it. It reminds me a bit of the discussion around pulling and shoulder retraction on this forum.

Those one legged hops and similar exercises are all just movements that belong under the umbrella of plyometric exercises. I would suggest researching plyometrics and starting there, go for the beginner ones first. Single leg stuff is in the more advanced categories, so I'd work up to that first.

Plyometrics are far and beyond the most important exercises for developing fast twitch muscle fibers that generate speed and athletic power. It's what all the top trainers are pushing and it's what all the top athletes are mostly involved in nowadays, in addition to traditional weight bearing stuff, mobility movements, sport specific skill training and traditional yoga movements. I'd focus on those 5 main categories, with an emphasis on plyometrics, if I wanted to build athleticism for disc golf.

Do you have any specific plyometrics exercises or areas in mind that are helpful for discgolfers? Anything that people should be able to do if they wanted to throw 500 feet?

 

[HyzerRoc]

So wait, if people can't do a pistol squat or a Bulgarian split squat, they can't brace properly?

I wouldnt go that far, and im not sure how well Feldberg would fare if asked to do squats - but staying balanced on a single leg while your whole body is braced against it, and it simultaneously moving and pushing, seems pretty difficult if you cannot even do single legged squats or do balance exercises on a single leg. And even if you manage to brace, im not sure your knee will like that for very long.

 

[Sheep]

It blows peoples minds when me at 6'3 can do this stretch and put both palms on the ground.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Do you have any specific plyometrics exercises or areas in mind that are helpful for discgolfers? Anything that people should be able to do if they wanted to throw 500 feet?

Jumping into Plyometrics, by Donald Chu. Absolute Bible of Plyometrics and is pretty much the foundation for what professional athletes are doing nowadays.

Looks like there's a bunch of used copies on Amazon for 5 bucks or less.

Jumping into Plyometrics Amazon.com

Stick with the beginner stuff at first. For disc golf, pay particular attention to the upper body medicine ball exercises, those are GOAT to build that explosive power you're looking for.

 

[Brychanus]

So wait, if people can't do a pistol squat or a Bulgarian split squat, they can't brace properly?

Like HyzerRoc said I do think those tap a lot of the chain used in basic locomotion and would encompass the chain that activates when you plant and brace, and they are especially challenging since they recruit balance and stabilizers through the entire range. I can do assisted pistol squats but not freestanding.

I'd not be surprised if elite DGers can do them better than the average hobbyist or learn to do them more quickly, but I also would love to see that experiment. My guess is unless they're already doing them routinely its unlikely they have a pristine full-range move.

Just checked, and I still cant really sit straight up, even with my improvements in hamstrings. My lower back is still at an angle to the floor. How far can you go in this one? (sidenote, PTs recommend doing hamstring stretches while laying and the floor, and put up one leg at a time against a wall or other solid object)

View attachment 356478

I can drop both hands flat on the floor, just a bit rustier than when I was younger and a little tighter in the hammies. Body type might contribute, but I also did work on it a lot IIRC for martial arts.

Your PT hammy recs sound consistent with mine. One other thing mine added was ones one with the heel on a step on the staircase, maybe just one or two up at first, and relax into it so the hammies stretch out. That helped seem to get some of the little muscles around the hip sockets a bit looser too, which I had trouble with even when the hammies were getting loose again (obv. recommend to anyone to defer to the professionals there).

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]Thats an interesting rule of thumb. I am about the same height as you, but with an ~35 inseam. When I measure out 36" on the ground and try to do a standstill in that stance, it seems impossible and while I could probably make my stance that wide in an x-step, I would not be able to control the movement and more or less let momentum carry me through. Guess that means lunges and other leg RoM related exercises are on the menu.[/COLOR]

Yeah could be.

Just some more to chew on: I also am reminded by this that any heuristic at the top is filtered through a long chain of development we don't see. As sidewinder likes to point out there are a lot of body types, so even if a given set of heuristics from pros are desirable mileage may vary. I can do a wider stance standstill, but it still feels more comfortable if I start more narrow and stride into it. I think my xstep still tends to be on the more vertical/narrow side, but I'm also not often throwing at full power. I just tested it and I can freely move into that "half-height" stance range once I'm loose, but that definitely feels like the range I'm trying to cue up a big move and already would be carrying momentum. If I started in that stance I think I'd have trouble getting the force and my body mass fully into the shot (I also have a drive leg abnormality so that may not help).

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]It is difficult to tell how wide apart his feet really are here, I can put them further apart than my hip and still get to the floor, wider and it gets tough to get to the floor as my legs become weak in that position. And Matty seemingly does this because its comfortable for him [/COLOR]
Can you get into his position?

Yes, I can, but this is also one where it would have been impossible or very uncomfortable a few months ago. I'd have to look but maybe Matty's hips are less ER than yours (edit: he looks neutral to slightly IR to me); my hips are slightly asymmetric but neutral-ish.

I can't find it right now but a woman had a workout video talking about how little kids constantly like to move around in those squatty positions and kind of shift and waddle around. They can like of hang out like Matty indefinitely with their legs more or less internally or externally rotated in "athletic" stance. So I started doing that when playing with my girls on the floor sometimes. Kind of silly but I think that helped a lot and I can hang out there comfortably for a while now. If I ever feel inflammation around the hips I also like to do those just to loosen everything up a bit. When I warm up to workout or throw I try to remember to drop into that for just a couple bobs to get loose.

Just don't force the knees "in" if you try it- it's more like an athletic stance a catcher takes where the foot pressure is closer to the insteps, but it should never feel like it is like shearing or putting diagonal stress on the knee. Took a bit for my legs to be able to support my weight in that RoM but I never really felt like I was making my already sensitive knees uncomfortable.

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)](On the Leg kicks) thanks for the instruction, im gonna try that out. and its good to have a goal in mind.[/COLOR]

Yw- always remember to "swing thru" the target with the legs too. I'll tinker with the variants your PT mentioned because those sound interesting.

The second kick there is big for lateral mobility, but yes you also noticed the second key idea that it tends to get some of that "north south" action of the chain including spine and pelvis like those SE drills. You can start by mostly isolating the hip sockets down, then let the whole body swing the leg. Should feel like you use the ground to help, but then the whole body gets into a good pump. That RoM plus the full body mechanic and ground leverage gets smaller in DG form but was the "secret" to a high power sidekick when I was learning. I still like to share the time a girl maybe 100lbs less than me put my squarely on my ass with a shuffle sidekick- she was trained the same way. Once you understand this (in your body) the debates about RoM in the pelvis or a "stop" brace vs. a "carry through" brace become less confusing. They're ideally integrated as one move (imo).

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]Thats also one area that confused me when trying to figure out what to actually do for my RoM as people are usually on board with stretching or strictly against it. It reminds me a bit of the discussion around pulling and shoulder retraction on this forum.[/COLOR]

Yeah, I guess I don't have enough expertise to have a strong opinion- I just learn as I read from academic literature, which I can evaluate with my general research expertise, but not domain-specific expertise. I felt more comfortable doing/sharing much of what we're talking about in the last few posts after talking to merela and finding that it only enhanced my DG (and overall function). Then my physician reinforced my own read that a lot of the literature is challenging because so many effects are small in underpowered studies, but overall "use it or lose it" and "if it hurts, dio something else" still apply. Would always suggest people also consult with drs.

[COLOR=var(--text-lighter)]Do you have any specific plyometrics exercises or areas in mind that are helpful for discgolfers? Anything that people should be able to do if they wanted to throw 500 feet?[/COLOR]

Jumping into Plyometrics, by Donald Shu. Absolute Bible of Plyometrics and is pretty much the foundation for what professional athletes are doing nowadays.

Looks like there's a bunch of used copies on Amazon for 5 bucks or less.

Jumping into Plyometrics Amazon.com

Stick with the beginner stuff at first. For disc golf, pay particular attention to the upper body medicine ball exercises, those are GOAT to build that explosive power you're looking for.

This looks awesome, and just in time for the holidays. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Nick Pacific]

This looks awesome, and just in time for the holidays. Thanks for sharing!

Last night in Yoga class was a reminder of just how much stronger my right leg is than my left, all from the last 20 years of disc golf (bracing and planting on my right plant leg for RHBH). During the standing series, I can balance perfectly on my right, do all the poses and movements with ease. On my left leg, not so much, a wobbly mess. This despite the fact that my left leg was my dominant leg growing up and playing sports, the one I used for all of my single leg jumps if I jumped off of one foot - so if anything, it should be the stronger one. Interesting to say the least.

If I was training a young athlete for disc golf, outside of the sport specific stuff like we talk about here/sidewinder drills/technique forum and whatnot, I'd definitely focus on the below

1. Plyometrics, both upper and lower body
2. Lifting weights, doing explosive compound movements like the Olympic lifts
3. Mobility stuff, particularly the Discgolf strong stuff.
4. Yoga, specifically Bikram style.

 

[Grok Lobster]

The easy way - throw downhill. I have a 600' ace at De Laveaga's Top of the World.

 

[Brychanus]

Last night in Yoga class was a reminder of just how much stronger my right leg is than my left, all from the last 20 years of disc golf (bracing and planting on my right plant leg for RHBH). During the standing series, I can balance perfectly on my right, do all the poses and movements with ease. On my left leg, not so much, a wobbly mess. This despite the fact that my left leg was my dominant leg growing up and playing sports, the one I used for all of my single leg jumps if I jumped off of one foot - so if anything, it should be the stronger one. Interesting to say the least.

If I was training a young athlete for disc golf, outside of the sport specific stuff like we talk about here/sidewinder drills/technique forum and whatnot, I'd definitely focus on the below

1. Plyometrics, both upper and lower body
2. Lifting weights, doing explosive compound movements like the Olympic lifts
3. Mobility stuff, particularly the Discgolf strong stuff.
4. Yoga, specifically Bikram style.

Would you think that prioritizing bilateral training (including two & singled-legged moves) would remain the priority?

E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if on the one hand anyone who throws a lot moving one direction over the other is prone to developing some kind of asymmetry in terms of the chain being recruited moving in that direction.

The interesting question to me would be if you would "double down" on that with the training, or instead (or in addition) emphasize bilateral training.

So far, most sports training in other domains I'm trying to learn about sort of uses the hybrid approach - train the overall body in the domains you mention here bilaterally, then add drills/exercises/tasks/practice to develop the specialized skill. Do you or anyone object to that philosophy, or does it seem "good enough" for the average enthusiast or budding athlete?

 

[StupendousMan]

Would you think that prioritizing bilateral training (including two & singled-legged moves) would remain the priority?

E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if on the one hand anyone who throws a lot moving one direction over the other is prone to developing some kind of asymmetry in terms of the chain being recruited moving in that direction.

The interesting question to me would be if you would "double down" on that with the training, or instead (or in addition) emphasize bilateral training.

So far, most sports training in other domains I'm trying to learn about sort of uses the hybrid approach - train the overall body in the domains you mention here bilaterally, then add drills/exercises/tasks/practice to develop the specialized skill. Do you or anyone object to that philosophy, or does it seem "good enough" for the average enthusiast or budding athlete?

I think for the average enthusiast/rec level athlete (I.e. not making a living on it), I would absolutely emphasize bilateral training. When it comes to somebody making a real living at it, likely do just enough to avoid getting hurt, cuz at that point they'll just kind of accept some imbalance in favour of being better at the sport. On a professional scale, it's exploit the strengths for all they're worth and just keep the weaknesses in line enough to stay in one piece. I think that would be relatively doable where you wouldn't be worried about long term quality of life impacts, just some really weird imbalances.

That said, everyone is going to have some level of imbalance and symmetry no matter what we do, so it's never going to be perfect.

Edit: To a large extent, most sports even at a high level will have a large amount of 'bilateral' type training in philosophy in the weightroom because so many weight training & S & C exercises just are by nature.

 

[Brychanus]

I think for the average enthusiast/rec level athlete (I.e. not making a living on it), I would absolutely emphasize bilateral training. When it comes to somebody making a real living at it, likely do just enough to avoid getting hurt, cuz at that point they'll just kind of accept some imbalance in favour of being better at the sport. On a professional scale, it's exploit the strengths for all they're worth and just keep the weaknesses in line enough to stay in one piece. I think that would be relatively doable where you wouldn't be worried about long term quality of life impacts, just some really weird imbalances.

That said, everyone is going to have some level of imbalance and symmetry no matter what we do, so it's never going to be perfect.

Edit: To a large extent, most sports even at a high level will have a large amount of 'bilateral' type training in philosophy in the weightroom because so many weight training & S & C exercises just are by nature.

This is helpful, thanks man. So being on the enthusiast end, I guess I don't feel terribly off base doing what I'm doing + continuing to supplement with some sport-specific drill emphasis. Then, when I finally get some field time again I can just keep chipping away at technique and hopefully the new fitness has offered a little more resilience and maybe a bit of a higher floor & ceiling.