Axiom Defy vs Time Lapse

[Twmccoy]

So, I decided to directly compare 2 Axiom drivers with similar flight numbers. Defy (11, 5, -1, 3), and the Time Lapse (12, 5, -1, 3). Both have the same width rim (2.2cm). Defy has a very slightly shallower rim 1.1cm vs 1.2cm for the Time Lapse. By these metrics, the two discs should perform similarly, right? Not even close.

Both discs are neutron plastic. Time Lapse is 174g, and the Defy is 171g. Both discs were thrown on the course and in the field side by side.

Long story short, the Defy is BY FAR the better performing of the two. It flies fairly true to the flight numbers. On hard, flat rips it'll turn a bit and hold the turn for a while before fading out. Very similar to something like a slightly beat star Destroyer. The Defy is capable of pretty big distance, and is an easily controlled disc. It won't fully turn over unless you throw it brutally hard anny and don't give it a chance to flex out. Top distance with the Defy was about 450'. Nice glide, tight S curve flight, and not too much late fade.

The Time Lapse is where real trouble begins. Simply put, this mold is TERRIBLE. I've thrown 3 different Time Lapses now, from 2 different batches. They're all the same. VICIOUSLY overstable, glideless, slow, and clunky. I don't even know how anyone gets these things to fly. IMO the Time Lapse flies like a faster Firebird. No glide whatsoever, and it looks for the ground immediately out of the hand. Even when I put a lot of anny on the Time Lapse it immediately fights out of it and goes dive bombing to the ground. Hard, hooking fade that comes quickly. I daresay I could even throw an Xcaliber further than a Time Lapse. Where the Defy seems to fly slightly faster than its assigned speed number (11), the Time Lapse flies slower than its speed number (12). I have to say, of all the 12, 5, -1, 3 drivers out there the Time Lapse is BY FAR the worst. It's ridiculously beefy, slow, and short. Max distance was probably 375'. The Defy flew circles around the Time Lapse.

Summary: Of these two drivers, the Defy is easily the better choice. It flies in a fairly normal manner, and compares favorably to a Zeus, DD3, or Destroyer. I have no idea what happened with the Time Lapse, but this thing is a mess. Unless you're throwing in hurricane force headwinds I can't see any reason to use it. The disc is slow, doesn't glide, has no distance, and starts fading almost right out of your hand.

Simon probably should have just put his name on the Defy. IMO the Time Lapse is the worse driver Axiom/MVP make. Very poor choice for anyone wanting a good distance bomber.

 

[waltny]

Try a time lapse in fission, even for my ~300+ arm I can get good distance (my current one being 161 and a 172 that isn't as workable but getting there) with that tight s curve or the dead straight lazer. 165 fission Defy also bombs for me, I'm sure at the higher weights it should translate to what you may be looking for.

 

[RAHfrolfer]

I as well tried to like the time lapse. Overall a pretty dead feel. I don't find it as overstable as you are describing but just not a great feel when thrown. More like a 4 or 3.5 glide. I'm not sure why I would need a low glide distance driver, but I don't.
I don't even see simon throwing them. Does he ever pull one out of the bag?

 

[stupid trees]

Fission time lapses are a little inconsistent , but they bomb. Mondo glide.

 

[lee76007]

The Fission Defy was too fllippy for me, same with the Fission Time lapse. Since my bag flip 2 1/2 years ago I'm on my second Fission Photon love throwing them. A local PIAS has had Neutron Defy's the past several months. That should be good for me wooded courses, but I always end up walking out with something else.

Neutron Time lapse I use for strong wind 25 mph plus gusty, within about a month 30 plus sustained several times thru March, gusty higher. I use them more for stability than distance. The best I've had for that type of wind. I have two orange stable, purple understable. Their is a hole that borders A river, the tree line across the river and swamp 1 1/2 miles away when that crosswind roars across the fairway brutal. On good form purple can handle it. Get to do it two more times orange going the other way, and purple coming back. Before the Time lapse I used a Neutron Mayhem, majority of the time getting crushed, along with any other disc used.

 

[Twmccoy]

I as well tried to like the time lapse. Overall a pretty dead feel. I don't find it as overstable as you are describing but just not a great feel when thrown. More like a 4 or 3.5 glide. I'm not sure why I would need a low glide distance driver, but I don't.
I don't even see simon throwing them. Does he ever pull one out of the bag?

Eagle doesn't throw them either. I think Simon and Eagle both throw the Dimension and Delirium for big distance.

Time Lapse sucks, plain and simple. I've tried multiple times to find some sort of common ground with the thing, and haven't.

 

[Sheep]

This was an interesting read.

Lets think about some things with this disc though before we get to hoity toity on it.

Eagle has fallen in love with 2 molds from MVP.
The Thrill and the Limit. The Thrill is probably the worse of the worse molds MVP has ever made. The limit is right up there as well in the camp of "terrible" and that's why these molds are kaputs.

The thrill is a no glide meat hook monster that even after a good beat down session will still refuse to fly.
I remember thinking about how it might be good for this and that and taking it to the course and I couldn't' get it over 200 feet.
Handed it to the guy I played with at the time who threw 500+ and he couldn't get it over 300 feet no matter what he did.

Russel gave me one of the 1616 ones that he dug out of the water with no name that was in the LOF for a few years, so we tried that. It was beat to living hell. Same results. Glideless turd.

I did the same with the Limit, I wanted that wider rim for skip shots, because I love the energy. Its such a fun disc. So I figured I'd get more from the limit. Lawl, I could throw the energy more and further than the limit. And the funny thing was, the energy is more overstable than the limit.

I really need to go back to my old skip bag, that was far more fun golf. I digress.

Eagle and Simon have wierd disc choices as it is. but lets look at a few other things that pro's seem to do in the MVP line up. They choose fireball over motion. Fireball is another glideless turd, the motion, to me, is superior in every way. It has better flight, more reliable, and you can simply do more with it with less effort from what I can see.

Eagle LOVES overstable stuff. And he wonders why his shoulder is jacked. I sold him my shelf queen thrill. It was never thrown, he paid fair for it. I dont' think he's ever thrown it. He wanted the thrills.

Moving on.
I got a newer player I play with, he has a pretty strong backhand and forehand.
2 of his favorite discs to throw distance are...
Timelapse and Thrill.

And he can throw the thrill pretty far, and the timelapse further.

My expereinces with the timelapse are the same as the rest of everyone in here. I took the timelapse out excited to learn something and all I learned was that I can throw my envy further than the timelapse.

I think the legitimacy of the timelapse was to present a disc that fans will buy because of the 12 on it for speed. despite all 11' speeds in MVP's line up measuring 22mm the whole time, they were all 12 speeds. I digress.
But The disc is meant for bog standard control shots for guys like simon and eagle.

That and MVP's QC is.. kind of nonexistant because they are letting a robot do it.
Anyone get any proper flying orbitals from the last 2 runs? (Anyone also sick of hearing me bitch about this?)

If you got a machine that measures the PLH on the disc to get it close. How do you fuck it up?
HOW DO YOU FUCK IT UP?

"oh the disc came out overstable"
You ran like 5,000+ of them. How did you not know with a machine that MEASURES THE FUCKING DISC TO SEE IF ITS CORRECT?!

This is the timelapse and the strangeness of MVP's newer processes.

I think the bro's are still doing good jobs, but there is some QC issues still, And we can see that in the timelapse runs. Though. It is axiom, and I'll swear by it all day. Rim color is so important in axiom runs. even more so in the 9 speed and up area where you got more wing to deform from different colors cooling slightly different.

The Defy, if you ask me, is just an everymans driver. It's the dics that all the 12 speed criers should have been throwing the whole time. You know, all the people who think they need a destroyer. And I always reply "which run of destroyer? The ones that were impossible meat hooks, or the ones that were instant rollers?"

Fucking garbage disc now. If you get a good run of destroyers, they are amazing, but its' like russian roulette with that disc. get a scorpious and never look back.

OH yeah, defy.
I love the defy, i'm glad I found it in the Lab Second fission and it got me in love with it.

If you're looking for some controlled distance and a bit of variation in the molds, Defy.
The vanish isn't the greatest of pairings with it.
But the photon is when you want that stability.

And unfortunately, I am not one to recommend the wave much, of all the discs MVP makes, the wave is probably the most wildly inconsistent, but if you find a properly flying wave. The defy/photon/wave combo is really hard to beat.
And if you're an absolute lunatic like I am, the OG actual -4+turn Orbitals are just a bag staple of "hold my beer" or "let me show you how to actually throw rollers and hyzer flips."

The timelapse, it's just not built for us "mortals."
The pro's abilities to command nose angle and throw at 70+mph really allow the disc to perform even if its overstable.

 

[Moose33]

I like the TL better for forehand, Defy better for backhand. TL has decent glide at speed but you do have to get it going, I think once you hit 65 it starts to shine. I will say though that I have to be careful with nose angle, it does not like much anhyzer.

 

[@CD-]

I think the precision profile measuring is all done after the disc is completely molded - still has some cooling to do which is complicated by the separate cooling properties of the core and overmold plastics (color changes the plastic blend - humidity properties and cooling).

Likely they are wanting to track PLH based on parameters input to the molding machine and capture the environment conditions for humidity and cooling to see if they can fine tune the programming of the machine. They may need to flex those parameters to get a desired PLH, weight, and dome based on prior runs but those could run counter to one another when trying to tune for one of those.

---

Scorpius seems more consistent because Millennium has Innova only run them 1 time in Sirius blend for every 10+ Star Destroyer runs in all the plastics. Emperor is run a bit more in different special plastics but still not near what Destroyers are run at. People reference specific runs because they are identifiable - check out how many different regular Star stamps Innova has released as either stock or near stock runs. I think I counted 10+ since McBeth left in 2018 so probably 2 introduced per year. The same run identification is really not a thing for Champion, Pro, or DX Destroyers or for many of the Wraith/Boss runs.

 

[Twmccoy]

I've thrown quite a few Axiom/MVP discs over the years. Truth be told, I don't really like most of their molds, especially their faster drivers. The Limit was mentioned a couple posts ago. I've seen and thrown a couple of them. One of the most overstable, glideless discs I've ever seen. I bag a Flick and Nuke OS, and the Limit was still more overstable than either of them. I'd rate it at 13, 3, 0, 5. No glide, no turn, MASSIVE fade. It's too short even for routine overstable work.

Frankly, I only compared the Defy to the Time Lapse because both discs have very similar flight numbers (supposedly). The Defy is by no means the best Destroyer-like driver I've ever thrown, but I'll call it a worthy performer. The Time Lapse, on the other hand, is one of the biggest disasters I've ever seen. I've thrown LOTS of beefy speed 12 drivers over the years, but I think the Time Lapse takes the cake. The thing has ZERO glide. It won't go anywhere, and flies noticeably slower than its assigned 12 speed.

My main beef with MVP/Axiom drivers is that they don't hyzerflip well. Even a lot of their understable discs will NOT pop up flat from an anny release. Thing is, when you toss them hard and flat they dive bomb over immediately. There just isn't a good way to throw these discs to get a good flex on them. Stuff like the Octane and Relativity have this problem. Won't flip up, but will turn over immediately if thrown flat and hard. The Relativity IS one of the longest drivers I've ever thrown... on the 1 throw in 12 that I magically find the right line for it. The Octane is another mold I've found stubborn over the years. No turn, no glide, dumpy fade, weak distance.

My 2 favorite MVP/Axiom discs are the Excite and Trail. Both of those actually WILL pop up flat from a hard hyzer release and glide. In fact, I'll say the Trail might be the best flying driver those guys make of any speed. The Excite is a pure smasher that will outfly 99% of all other drivers on the market.

Stuff like the Wave, Catalyst, and Vanish work a little bit if you like really understable drivers. The Orbital is laughably understable junk.

Here's how I'd rank all the MVP/Axiom drivers I've thrown... (1 to 5 stars).

Defy: 4/5- Good Destroyer clone. Flies as it should.
Orbital: 1/5- Too flippy even for very weak throws. Could be a roller disc I suppose.
Photon: 2/5- Too flat and overstable. No glide.
Catalyst: 3/5- Can be very long, but really flippy and hard to control.
Teleport: 1/5- WAAAYYYY more overstable than flight numbers indicate. Big disappointment.
Delirium: 4/5- Very fast, fairly overstable. Glide could be a touch better. Dumpy fade.
Dimension: 4/5- Very similar to Delirium. Very fast and fairly overstable.
Octane: 3/5: Very average at best. Worse than most Destroyers. Lacks glide.
Wave: 3/5: Not a terrible understable disc. Good distance, hard to control.
Vanish: 3/5: Same as Wave in every way. Maybe a touch less flippy.
Time Lapse: 0/5: On a scale of 1 to 5 it gets a zero... for everything I've already said earlier. Terrible....
Excite: 5/5: Proven winner. Very fast, glidey, and long. Actually flies how it's supposed to.
Trail: 5/5: What a great disc. Turns, glides, moderate fade. IMO best gliding driver in the MVP/Axiom lineup.
Limit: 1/5: MASSIVE beef. Very short, no glide. Not fun to throw.
Mayhem: 4/5: Generally pretty good. Somewhat understable. Nice glide and big distance.
Tantrum: 2/5: Similar to the Teleport or Delirium. Very fast, no glide, really overstable. Not fun to throw.
Panic: 3/5: Maybe a hair less overstable than the Tantrum or Delirium. OK driver. Still pretty beefy.
Tenacity: 2/5: Very understable. Fast with good glide, but turns over and doesn't ever come back.
Crave: 4/5: Very nice for a semi-understable fairway driver. Good glide, turn, and distance.
Insanity: 3/5: A worse version of the Trail. Fairly flippy and inconsistent.
Nitro: 3/5: Very fast, poor glide, really overstable. Absolute beef (like many of these others).
Photon: 2/5: Too flat, glideless, and overstable. Flies shorter than it should for those reasons.
Relativity: 4/5: Ridiculously fast and long, but finicky and understable as well. Massive potential.
Zenith: 2/5: Very flat, glideless, overstable, and short.

Common theme here? Many molds that are VERY overstable, lack glide, and have really dumpy fades. I feel like half of MVP/Axiom discs require an expert level arm to throw effectively.

 

[Sheep]

My main beef with MVP/Axiom drivers is that they don't hyzerflip well. Even a lot of their understable discs will NOT pop up flat from an anny release. Thing is, when you toss them hard and flat they dive bomb over immediately. There just isn't a good way to throw these discs to get a good flex on them. Stuff like the Octane and Relativity have this problem. Won't flip up, but will turn over immediately if thrown flat and hard. The Relativity IS one of the longest drivers I've ever thrown... on the 1 throw in 12 that I magically find the right line for it. The Octane is another mold I've found stubborn over the years. No turn, no glide, dumpy fade, weak distance.

The only way to say this is to say it. but that sounds more of a "skill" issue vs a "disc" issue.

I think you meant hyzer release there too vs Anny. So, let that pass of course.

Based on that bit of information you've given there, however, I can certainly tell you're a nose up thrower, or a very inconsistent nose angle controller based on your shot shape. Which thats pretty common for most people.
Some of that issue you're running into is really just technique stuff. And I wont lie one bit about it, a lot of MVP discs are harder to throw than single molds. It's why people just jammed on them hard for years, cause they couldn't throw them. It's not that the discs were bad, its that the players techniques were bad and their old flippy mamba's and bosses were very forgiving discs to throw vs the MVP discs which are not forgiving at all.

Mainly all of it has to do with the gyro physics. It is, on paper, harder to throw any gyro disc than it is to throw a single mold. This generally translates into wildly understable discs that people cant control, or wildly overstable discs that people think are glideless turds.

All because of spin and moment of inertia changes.
Single mold discs are SOO easy to throw when you get proficient with the max weight overmold stuff.

I think it was 18% weight increase on the rim degalus reported years ago on his paper on the standard plastics, it was higher on the fission.

A majority of people out there trying MVP for the first time need to be throwing 165g discs, not 175 and they will see actual success throwing the discs.

"Oh but its not max weight, its gonna suck in the wind."
Bro.
I throw 150's in the wind with MVP. Not scared. Fission 150's in the wind. lawl, that disc has got you. (to a point here, lets be realistic) I'd never throw a lightweight single mold in the wind like that unless I was playing the wind.