First form check!

[jupiterboy]

I had a round with a local pro/coach recently. I'm still off my run up, just throwing stand stills from the tee, so I'm simply focused on my line. He mentioned using the forearm as an alignment anchor in terms of the line and disc path—essentially thinking of keeping the forearm aligned with the line. I'm looking out and finding where I want the disc to go—apex/shape/etc—but then I orient my feet to a tight line/aim based on the expected disc path, then run that line back down the tee pad and check my forearm alignment. From that point forward I'm not looking out at the fairway at all, just coiling and releasing so I don't ever really look out at the fairway until the throw pulls my body around. It's the line and angle of the disc only.

To your point, I'm not actively thinking about my head, but as I'm aiming and aligning myself I let go of that idea of looking down the fairway, trusting my aim, throwing blind. My mind and head seem to focus on that forearm in the pocket and the line vector. Seems to be helping with accuracy.

Maybe some practice stand-stills without looking forward at all would help. I feel like that forward looking leads to me opening my chest to the target too soon. After a month or so of throwing like this I'm at least breaking my habit of opening up too soon.

 

[Brychanus]

I had a round with a local pro/coach recently. I'm still off my run up, just throwing stand stills from the tee, so I'm simply focused on my line. He mentioned using the forearm as an alignment anchor in terms of the line and disc path—essentially thinking of keeping the forearm aligned with the line. I'm looking out and finding where I want the disc to go—apex/shape/etc—but then I orient my feet to a tight line/aim based on the expected disc path, then run that line back down the tee pad and check my forearm alignment. From that point forward I'm not looking out at the fairway at all, just coiling and releasing so I don't ever really look out at the fairway until the throw pulls my body around. It's the line and angle of the disc only.

To your point, I'm not actively thinking about my head, but as I'm aiming and aligning myself I let go of that idea of looking down the fairway, trusting my aim, throwing blind. My mind and head seem to focus on that forearm in the pocket and the line vector. Seems to be helping with accuracy.

Maybe some practice stand-stills without looking forward at all would help. I feel like that forward looking leads to me opening my chest to the target too soon. After a month or so of throwing like this I'm at least breaking my habit of opening up too soon.

All helpful. I'll never object to more work with standstills, where I have less of these issues in general.

Noticed this action is in my standstill and has gotten lazy in my X-step while fishing around with other stuff. Seems to help my balance into the shift & head a bit too.

 

[Brychanus]

I am tinkering around with my balance and shift in Door Frame Drill, Load the Bow, and related moves before next field session too to see if it helps...

 

[Kennets]

I know this isn't my form thread, but..

I played a quick round today and had atrocious drives. Everything came out on anny, with next to no power and even 230 holes were a "pump" with a mid.

Took my full bag, swung it like a pendulum back and forth on the tee, threw the bag, instantly picked up my buzzz and parked a straight 300 feet hole without breaking a sweat. It's "funny" how a so "simple" thing can be that hard.

Muscle memory is a pain, specially if you're an old fart like us.

Not sure where I'm going with this - keep on grinding bud!

 

[Brychanus]

I know this isn't my form thread, but..

I played a quick round today and had atrocious drives. Everything came out on anny, with next to no power and even 230 holes were a "pump" with a mid.

Took my full bag, swung it like a pendulum back and forth on the tee, threw the bag, instantly picked up my buzzz and parked a straight 300 feet hole without breaking a sweat. It's "funny" how a so "simple" thing can be that hard.

Muscle memory is a pain, specially if you're an old fart like us.

Not sure where I'm going with this - keep on grinding bud!

I always appreciate old fart sympathy. SW & my dance instructor both like the adage that trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a good definition of insanity.

Sometimes things come from strange places, and you've been there before and then it works better the next time.

My standstill feels very much like Door Frame Drill. My X-step does not yet. Last night I realized in Load the Bow drill that part of what is happening is that my pendulum pump is helping me get my mass swinging forward and backswing to load in side bend (which was hellishly hard for months), but when my feet start moving, I am never quite ending up getting the right leverage in the backswing. My balance is wrong and my rear leg is getting confused as hell. Walking it out with Load the Bow feels much more natural.

So my idea tomorrow is to see if I can access the Load the Bow feel with a smaller cradle pump. If I can connect what my body knows from the pendulum with what it now knows from Load the Bow, maybe it will help.

Or maybe not and onto the next attack.

 

[Brychanus]

This was the first time I successfully connected my pendulum mechanics to some of the lessons from Load the Bow. I set a new 3-step distance best and every shot was coming out a bit farther more easily right away. My smaller pump still feels like a pendulum, but is making it less likely that I'm off axis or balance in the backswing. This was the first time I feel like I'm lighter on my feet & more "athletic" without micromanaging stuff in my legs.

I think I can keep working on what my balance and head are doing with Load the Bow, and keep working on setting up the tilted axis/feel for standstill better in my practice pumps before I throw each shot. I think the backswing/coil alignment is a little off.

The first two are right after I finished warming up adding Load the Bow. The first one was one of the longest shots and my knee action there finally looks like signs of progress. The last 3 are a bit later after working more on fixing my balance off the rear side, some better than others. My legs, weight shift, and hip action seems to function best/most easily somewhere around this range of motion.



Notes:
-These look, feel, and function better to me overall.
-Stamina's up. 60 drives before I noticed being tired. I lost a little distance and control around 40 so I'll keep an eye on that.
-Knees are feeling better again. Seems kinder to be doing drive practice on hard dirt than concrete and improved balance helps!
-In last few shots I tinkered with off arm to test the effect on my shift. I think my overall balance is still the bigger fish to fry because overcooking it would put me back "over the top." So I don't think I would screw with it much for now as long as it's not dragging. It seems like it still naturally wants to function kinda between pure "don't spill the beverage" and aligned closer to a Gurthie lever in the shift with a wide upper arm/shoulder angle...

 

[Kennets]

First throw from behind, is probably the most fluid/athletic I've seen you all this time. Good stuff man! First time my noob eyes sees a vastly different throw from you.

I spent some time yesterday looking at the sideview, whilst looking at pros side by side.

I'm no SW, but my observations:

- your head (but we knew that)

- there something off between your lead shoulder and arm. I wouldn't call it a collapse, but if compared to pro's, it looks like your shoulder is "dragging" the arm at times. In your latest YouTube vid with Simon, that's a great example if you compare your lead shoulder/arm with his. Not sure if it's a shrug (don't kill me), posture issue or what it is.

- flexibility : I know you're working on this. Age, wear and tear is real. Hip/spine (lower back especially) mobility would let you coil some more in the mid section. I know we can't be as flexible as Simon or eagle, but it would help and prevent injuries as time goes.

 

[Brychanus]

First throw from behind, is probably the most fluid/athletic I've seen you all this time. Good stuff man! First time my noob eyes sees a vastly different throw from you.

I spent some time yesterday looking at the sideview, whilst looking at pros side by side.

I'm no SW, but my observations:

- your head (but we knew that)

- there something off between your lead shoulder and arm. I wouldn't call it a collapse, but if compared to pro's, it looks like your shoulder is "dragging" the arm at times. In your latest YouTube vid with Simon, that's a great example if you compare your lead shoulder/arm with his. Not sure if it's a shrug (don't kill me), posture issue or what it is.

- flexibility : I know you're working on this. Age, wear and tear is real. Hip/spine (lower back especially) mobility would let you coil some more in the mid section. I know we can't be as flexible as Simon or eagle, but it would help and prevent injuries as time goes.

Thanks man! Of course interested if the big guy would attack differently now.

Head: yeah :-( I'm going back to training it to stay with the disc/Load the bow since it seems to be helping me moving over the drive leg more balanced already. I am encouraged that I'm moving more fluidly overall at least.

Lead shoulder + arm: I see this too. The better looking ones went farther more easily so there's something to it. I think I'm still having trouble finding the right coil posture moving over the drive leg. So looks like the lean/tip isn't totally gone and my shoulder isn't able to swing through ideally.

Flexibility: I probably still have at least a bit of trouble here left to work on.

 

[Brychanus]

Worked on my load the bow/coil which seems to have helped some things including the throwing shoulder/arm/pocket. Sticking with small to medium pump for now since it's still easier to work on the rear side transition and balance. I can get a decent snap with a medium pump and momentum. Tattar swing thoughts worked best today. A little Anthon stutter step before I move makes it less likely I get power stance stuff.

I tried "eyes with disc" most of the session. It helped somewhat, but it didn't completely change the fundamental tilt of my head when I plant to throw. So I'll need to find another strategy for that again.

I know my off arm had gotten a little too lax so in the last couple here I also focused on that a little more.

I'm going to back up ~30' and work on fairway drivers next time too to force myself to gain better angle control.

 

[Brychanus]

I am fishing around in Battering Ram, DFD, and Load the Bow to help clean up the backswing and transition.

I warmed up with mids and moved up to fairways from understable to more neutral, which I'll continue to do. The grip & leverage feedback in the throw and as they fly is already much clearer.

Here are 3 shots: low ceiling/forward penetrating hyzerflip line (e.g., woods tunnel shot), distance hyzerflip line (still nose down but much higher line of play, flippier disc) and lower hyzer. It was a little easier to work on my balance with the distance hyzerflip line, so I will keep mixing these up. Not quite sure what one variable to isolate for maximum benefit next.

I think part of the problem with these is that I could get just slightly deeper/more taut into the backswing to help tighten it up a bit and further mitigate tipping/head rush. It looks like I let off/get a little too slack rather than maintaining it entirely and getting pulled maximally taut into the shift. Looks like I could make sure my hinge hinge is at the hips to make sure it's not going thru knees.






Notes
-It's not always pretty but I'm getting from foot to foot much more easily in general.
-For now I reduced the volume of drives in a week and added more leg conditioning. This is helping. Glutes are already handling the load and recovery much better. Calves and hammies still need help so I learned some new exercises for that. Fun!
-Before I started throwing, I was tempted to switch back to pendulum to chase distance. But it seems wise to keep working on stuff on the rear side with the smaller pump for now at least. When I'm patient to get more "loaded" and shift better "against the frame" I can now still get a good hit on the discs.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are so flat footed and knees bent and getting in the way. You land very heavy on the rear foot early in the x-step. I'm still airborne and barely touching ground on toes while you have already squatted deep. The more weight you put on the rear foot/leg the harder it is to swivel/clear the rear hip/pelvis back out of the way. I can move my pelvis freely while airborne/lighter pressure. Joints become more rigid the more weight pressure there is on it.

Your rear elbow is also going way behind your back/targetward in backswing because your hips/pelvis are not turning back being flat footed This all likely causes your lead arm to collapse in transition. Note in forward swing how your lead elbow starts going northwest while your hand/disc go northest, so there is too much slack/lag/fishtailing in there. Your elbow then moves hard right/east while it extends from power pocket. You want to swing/accelerate your lower arm/disc more around your elbow in place. My hand/disc are towed in more straight behind the elbow into the pocket and then whipped out around. If we measured the swing time from the plant or power pocket to release mine would be much quicker than yours. Might be part of why your head/shoulders get so far open.

Forget about throwing. Just walk(Cowboy Boogie or Do my x-step/swing at end of Swing Drills vid) the x-step remaining on rear toes/plantar flexed(tall) and drop(fall) 1-2" going into plant landing on plantar flexed front foot. You are trying to bend your legs way too much and really only need a little.

 

[Brychanus]

You are so flat footed and knees bent and getting in the way. You land very heavy on the rear foot early in the x-step. I'm still airborne and barely touching ground on toes while you have already squatted deep. The more weight you put on the rear foot/leg the harder it is to swivel/clear the rear hip/pelvis back out of the way. I can move my pelvis freely while airborne/lighter pressure. Joints become more rigid the more weight pressure there is on it.

Your rear elbow is also going way behind your back/targetward in backswing because your hips/pelvis are not turning back being flat footed This all likely causes your lead arm to collapse in transition. Note in forward swing how your lead elbow starts going northwest while your hand/disc go northest, so there is too much slack/lag/fishtailing in there. Your elbow then moves hard right/east while it extends from power pocket. You want to swing/accelerate your lower arm/disc more around your elbow in place. My hand/disc are towed in more straight behind the elbow into the pocket and then whipped out around. If we measured the swing time from the plant or power pocket to release mine would be much quicker than yours. Might be part of why your head/shoulders get so far open.

Forget about throwing. Just walk(Cowboy Boogie or Do my x-step/swing at end of Swing Drills vid) the x-step remaining on rear toes/plantar flexed(tall) and drop(fall) 1-2" going into plant landing on plantar flexed front foot. You are trying to bend your legs way too much and really only need a little.

I follow and will do, thanks man.

I have a related conceptual question about the backswing that I think has been making this worse. We have talked about this a while back but I probably will understand it differently now.

How much load/pressure do you feel against the rear leg in your backswing in transition? I'm wondering if I'm basically trying to overcook "grounding" everything the backswing into the rear leg far too much which is gluing me down more flat footed. It sounds more like you are more like a dancer all the way thru the transition and the backswing load is less forced than mine or at least much quicker and lighter on the rear foot in transition even if the peak backswing force is high. If your Swing Drills X-step is equal to your throws, my guess is that you feel much more elevated against gravity higher on the toes before you transition and land in the plant even when your backswing is closer to door frame drill height.

 

[jupiterboy]

Might get some reps on a jump rope before you throw to get that feet/calf thing awake.

 

[Brychanus]

Might get some reps on a jump rope before you throw to get that feet/calf thing awake.

Good idea. I've also been finding these athletic skips helpful the past couple weeks, which if taken more onto the balls of the feet & sideways is like what SW is trying to get me to do...

Edit 1: Was looking at the last few posts of my throws and I kinda liked where I was at in post 1106 trending better than the two after that. I looked much quicker & more relaxed with less knee bend and less of my body getting in the way. I think I started to overcook the rear side the wrong way after that.

Edit 2: yeah, mostly just to convince myself: I was fighting my body less and doing better being light & rhythmic coming into the plant in the post 1106 vid relative to the one right after that below. Very clear when you watch side by side - it's almost like in the 2nd video I'm trying to get more out of only my chain muscling rather than rely as much as I can first on momentum. The most recent vid in post 1110 has similar problems. I'll get kinetically back closer to the mode I was in post 1106 and work from there w/ more Boogie/x-step taller/twinkle toes. Gotta be lighter on toes and loose until pulled taut in shift and carry momentum thru the plant.

 

[Brychanus]

Forget about throwing. Just walk(Cowboy Boogie or Do my x-step/swing at end of Swing Drills vid) the x-step remaining on rear toes/plantar flexed(tall) and drop(fall) 1-2" going into plant landing on plantar flexed front foot. You are trying to bend your legs way too much and really only need a little.

The big guy nails it again! This is a great course correction. Thankssss

Might get some reps on a jump rope before you throw to get that feet/calf thing awake.

Also nailed it.

We're having our 2nd kid any minute now, so I played with this yesterday and got some baseline throws today before I take a throwing break.

I found that my rear leg is much easier to do this already and feels more like running. My plant leg definitely wants to revert to "weightlifter" mode as I'm shifting and still wants to get way too flat.

I had some progressive success this morning. It does get easier for my head to relax the better my feet are working & balanced. The acceleration/snap factor went back up late in the swing again. Three throws from early, middle, and late in the session. In the last one you can see I was finally starting to get my toe leading more into the plant:



I also mega-exaggerated the plantar flexion at the very end to see what would happen. I found that it's possible to be too plantar flexed, which causes too much rigidity.

So In my forced downtime due to new baby I'm going to stop throwing and work on Boogie & X-step swing drill progressively adding momentum. I'll exaggerate being as high on my toes as I can without causing rigidity, then see how we look when I can get back out.

 

[jupiterboy]

Congrats on the new kid!

 

[Kennets]

Hoping the best for you and your family - congrats in advance!

On topic - I've played around with my run up. I've been to "stiff" and robotic, so I tried to exaggerate bending the legs and get more athletic. What felt like I nearly did a squat, were barely noticeable on film.. I hate disc golf at times, with a passion

What are those drills you're talking about? (Boogie and x step swing drill)

 

[Brychanus]

Hoping the best for you and your family - congrats in advance!

On topic - I've played around with my run up. I've been to "stiff" and robotic, so I tried to exaggerate bending the legs and get more athletic. What felt like I nearly did a squat, were barely noticeable on film.. I hate disc golf at times, with a passion

What are those drills you're talking about? (Boogie and x step swing drill)

Thanks! Still eagerly waiting. This one's a few days past the due date so it could really be any moment.

I tend to think of the "athleticism" as a mode you're in rather than just the posture. I too have had that experience of feels vs. reals/camera. For example, I already feel way more on the balls of my feet than I did before much more like when I box on my heavy bag, but I'm barely higher on camera. Then if I go too high and it's more obvious on camera I get too rigid in my calves. Weird stuff. Anyway:

Cowboy Boogie:


Swing X-step at 4:32. If you do it make sure you let the momentum carry you all the way through like he does:


At a few points Sidewinder pointed me to waltz moves for basically the same idea. I think the Cowboy Boogie helps me more right now because in Waltz you don't often have as much of the athletic springiness (like running or hopping) in many steps, which was contributing to my rigidity/body confusion. Boogie (for me) puts more spring in the step (plus jumping rope, baseball hops etc).

 

[sidewinder22]

Rear knee is still moving in reverse. When you land rear foot you want to push your rear knee east/deeper to clear the rear hip back out of the way.

 

[Brychanus]

Rear knee is still moving in reverse. When you land rear foot you want to push your rear knee east/deeper to clear the rear hip back out of the way.

Stopping throwing for a bit to work on this and Bebopping until it's automatic.

Before, you tried to get me to do this swinging the rear leg back like PP, but for some reason this time thinking "push the rear knee east" caused a different action. I think you also got my CoM less trapped in the East-West direction. "Feels" way different and quicker shift. Some were more like 20 degrees down the tee relative to trajectory/apex too (first one below). This also explained some of the remaining problem/difference relative to standstill.

Let's see. Here are some practice moves. First I did it without much backswing to focus on feet/pushing rear knee east, then added a little more backswing as I worked on making the shift more compact.



I'm annoyed my posture always unconsciously tends to lean away a little more when I move toward the blanket. anyway: