First form check!

Regarding K9 Discs, hyzer plane, and similarities/ differences in DG form vs DD form.
After year in disc dog dialing in hyzer form, anhyzers felt awkward at first when I returned to disc golf.
So during my og form run, although I was known for the big hyzer shots, I could do the same equally with anhyzer, but more importantly, anhyzer's overall were just easy for me. I think a lot of it may have been with what you pointed out, balance and posture I think. I could throw discs like Z talons and Z predators and use them like a Teebird/ Leopard combo, but it was very natural for me manipulating the varying degrees of anhyzer releases depending what I needed the disc to do. Both discs, I would cycle 2-3 of them, and as I went down the discs, stability would vary, so the 3rd disc would would be slight hyzer release to flip to flat for example.
When I tested out my theory, I was proud to say, I was correct about that. So made me think, for anyhyzer (OS discs) tap back into more of my OG form style in a sense. Something I did notice was the fact even if someone could throw a strong big hyzer, they could not do the same with the anhyzer shot.
I never felt like I threw that hard or effortful at all, unless it was strategically done. But, after a year in disc dog, initially anyways, it felt a little different when throwing drivers especially, as far as mids, I guess I could say the Buzz could fall in that camp.
Hopefully, that rambling made some sense.
What do you think actually distinguishes the anhyzer/hyzer difficulty or not compared to the OG form? I guess what I mean is whether you think there's a fundamentally new or different thing for you now in DD specifically at this moment.

Regarding back-leg, yeah it was strange to me too, i view as 2 legs in the throw are required. But the big picture is that they misinterpret what they think they are seeing, and or, the increased effort of of the rear leg as something productive happening. But, just following laws locomotion / biomechanics, I could not just mentally go there at all. lol
I guess one reason I'm trying to remain calm and carry on myself is that I know firsthand how easy it is to interpret the same visual stimulus in many different ways (I obviously make mistakes too). So I'm on the one hand sympathetic to the mistakes. I guess what I wish would happen less is when anyone gets too trenchant too quickly (me included). Or, if there really is a difference there, we can acknowledge we're doing different things and ask more questions. Just a personal approach I guess that keeps me from getting too hot too often (I hope).

Totally random, but just watched a Robbie C push putt video while eating some meal prep at my desk. lol
So from following Robbie, he gets coaching online and in person occasionally from Mike Strauss, and I know he also starting working with Clint aka BlitzDg as of recent.
I find it strange, and no knock on Robbie at all, as active as he in DG ( full time as creator ) and obtaining coaching from someone like Mike- he still struggling to hit/sit at 400 ft of golf distance if I am not mistaken. Is it the coaching ( mike knows his stuff) or something we are not aware of holding him back from that potential?

From watching him throw on video over the last year or so, it seems like with in-person coaching / training that it would be an easy thing to get him to do based on physical form and understand of it. I am curious what you guys think about this ?
The biggest things that stand out holding him back are his, lack of shoulder coil depth, doesn't get shoulder extended creating the longer lever, and could also add more booty wipe/squat/hinge in regards to torque and lower body.
Am I crazy for thinking this ? lol
I find it interesting too. Though I might say that you are still very much an exception and not a rule in throwers in DG. If ItInstIn will forgive one more pitching analogy, in disc golf terms, you're closer to that unicorn that gets shaped into a 100mph pitcher in the MLB than you are to the average person. Just to probe you a bit on this: what do you think the reasonable expectation for an adult learner getting into disc golf who is otherwise athletically average/body type with no extreme levers etc if psychology and poor training don't get in the way? E.g., if you had a crystal ball, where would you expect Robbie to top out?

I wonder about all kinds of reasons probably that people get stuck at a ceiling (all of which I am interested in). Josh from Overthrow shared some data on this with me at some point but that's not necessarily the same as answering what the potential expectation is.

I do remember watching RC throw and thinking that it never really looked like he was getting the full commitment of the chain in the move and there is something very different in his arm kinetics compared to top throwers, but I haven't looked closer in a while.

Probably off-topic (or maybe off-base), but for me this is what continuously trips me up when throwing backhand. In typical throwing motions, everything is driving to the target. The disc golf backhand kind of doesn't. It's either that the disc "stays in place" where the forward motion is creating coil or the player is moving their upper body back in the coil while their lower body is moving forward. The thrower then has to change their upper body direction to drive forward.

There's an aspect that is universal in that you don't (ever) throw off the back foot; the back foot drives you into the brace/plant. The "trick" is how to drive forward while coiling back. I think for some population, it's these counteracting forces that creates a lot of rounding and early pulling motions. You can see in forms like Eveliina Salonen and Dan Beto where there appears to be a split second "pause" in the backswing where the coil maxes out and the force goes from moving back to moving forward. Jake Hebenheimer tries to solve this with his "pre-coiled" run up.

Sorry for the weird ramble, but folks that try to draw too many parallels between, say, pitching motions and throwing backhand (including me!) might find different issues. I do notice in throwing balls backhanded, I don't really coil much, but it does help the arm portion of the throw quite a bit. It's really difficult to pick up even with a throwing sports background
I don't find it weird/off-base and welcome you joining the party!

On the learning/sports crossover: I still think it's a really weird motion in general for the reasons you mention and more. I also think the basic idea of generally taking your eyes off the target through such a large move with this weird quasi-rearward-facing-while-coiling-while-whipping-thru-a-cycle yada yada is prone to all kinds of failure points. I still also wonder if what's just plain harder for adult learns is 20, 30, 40+ years of mostly moving forward and using their eyes to do motor coordination/reach goals, throwing or otherwise. Sidewinder once suggested I close my eyes completely like Val Mandujano and it helped some things. But clearly I'm still at it for other issues otherwise lol. I responded very well to hammers but only via martial arts connection & others don't, etc. And I used to do a lot of spinning backfists that also very briefly take eyes of the target in the backhand direction but that also didn't just make everything work. Any new tool or crossover I use takes some time to figure out how to make it help rather than nothing or hurt.

On the ball specifically, I also do find the coil against the disc/flatter object functions kind of different than ball in a few ways that can be easily tripped up (personally). Leverage is different, end point hit/release mechanics are a bit different etc. My body kind of got the point of the coil from the ball very quickly but getting it into the disc was like an entirely different problem (for me).

Agree about force/counterforce and rounding. That's still what happens to me when I start trying to throw for distance when I haven't in a while (to say nothing of cleaning up the apex/angle control after that).

Even coaches need coaches. I think we can observe and catalog all the ideal features of a good throw. Executing is a different story. For me, if I could get in my coaches body and feel his well over 400' throw, I could emulate that VERY quickly. We can't do that, so we can observe and describe, then try to execute what we've observed and described. Until we can execute that AND translate that into something we can feel and replicate (I can't watch myself in real time, after all), there's a long process of iteration to get there. Some people won't get there. There are plenty of coaches in MLB/NHL/NBA/NFL/etc. who have never (meaningfully/professionally) played the sport they coach
Hear hear
My point was not b/c he is a coach having a coach, I did not mean for it to sound like that. I am big believer in coaches for a lot of things, even in my own life. I just meant he has had access to high level coaching, and still is, yet they have not been able to get him to tap into more distance yet.
I am curious what Mike Strauss was seeing and coaching him on, or what was he addressing. Now, he is also working with mike, but also Blitz he said.
My other point, was looking at this form, it seems like it should be an easy things to address from my point of view based on his current throw and strengths. Does that makes sense ?
I hear ya - bump on my response/thought experiment above if you don't mind thinking about it/sharing experiences.

 
I look at head coaches in team sports like football and basketball example a little differently than skills coach or trainer. With team sports like that there is a big X and O, strategy/chess part of the equation where never demonstrating the skill themselves is not required to coach at high level.
I have had these talks with friends that are still grinding it out as well, or have played pro or college ball about this topic a lot. Think some of it depends on the sport, skill, other framework needed, and or, popularity level of sport in relation to research, content, and studies available for it. Would you listen to someone that understand the theory behind shooting and ball handling in basketball, or someone that can demonstrate those skills along with ability to teach it to others at high level ? Curious what other think..
I mean I really don't have a super strong opinion here. But I can say why I settled on learning here/sidewinder specifically. I actually don't know if I've ever written all this so now seems fine:

1. I knew a bit from lurking that he had put a lot of blood and sweat into reverse engineering the process, and at 5'7'' as an adult got himself a pretty good (great for most people) result. I also knew he had an injury history and reputation for detailed mechanics, so at the time I figured I might as well go "all in" on one coach and model of thinking that had a history of some public success stories even if his approach wasn't everyone's cup of tea. I had already been doing damage to my body, so this was incredibly highly weighted for me.

2. I really liked how he started from the idea that the move should be efficient at all phases at all times. I was already aware and noticing that he emphasized an altogether different frame of refence on this problem than other visible people, and the idea that I could get a lot more out of a little was just kind of intellectually interesting, honestly. You can still tell it is to me lmao.

3. I did know he wasn't a pro tour player and was peaking somewhere around mid- 950s PDGA rating himself. I figured that that was still much better than me, and since I found the other things interesting as priorities I figured I'd give a shot.

4. I did also know he had been a pretty high-level athlete in a couple domains and I never was and worried about it a bit (plus despite being not super tall he has positive ape index and mine was negative so I vaguely wondered about that), but I hoped that the kind of combination of trying to dig himself out of a murder dungeon of confusion just struggling with the overall problem with learning a little about an athlete's approach helpful. I dramatically underestimated some of the athletic and motor history issues but that's also why a lot of the cross-sports analogies and drills have helped me. Then at some point it is/was up to the student to do the rest.
 
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It could be a few things:
  1. The deficiencies have been quantified, but Robbie can't execute the change for some reason (physical, mental, both)
  2. Similar to 1, but Robbie can execute but the coaches haven't seemed to find the right cue
  3. The coaches can't or have misidentified the deficiencies
  4. Lack of time in that they're not setting enough time aside to rep through some stuff with direct feedback (pretty typical with online coaching)
My guess is that it's 1 or 4 or some combination thereof. If a lot of Robbie's work is online, that's going to be super inefficient. It just depends on how much in-person coaching he's getting and how effective it has been. TBF, it's also just a slow process, in general, especially if you have to unlearn a bunch of bad habits in addition to learning new technique.
Makes sense to me.

On 4 it just made me think I'm glad that sometimes I forget how much I have obsessively put in time and sought feedback. I have this scratch I cannot fully itch.
 
What do you think actually distinguishes the anhyzer/hyzer difficulty or not compared to the OG form? I guess what I mean is whether you think there's a fundamentally new or different thing for you now in DD specifically at this moment.


I guess one reason I'm trying to remain calm and carry on myself is that I know firsthand how easy it is to interpret the same visual stimulus in many different ways (I obviously make mistakes too). So I'm on the one hand sympathetic to the mistakes. I guess what I wish would happen less is when anyone gets too trenchant too quickly (me included). Or, if there really is a difference there, we can acknowledge we're doing different things and ask more questions. Just a personal approach I guess that keeps me from getting too hot too often (I hope).


I find it interesting too. Though I might say that you are still very much an exception and not a rule in throwers in DG. If ItInstIn will forgive one more pitching analogy, in disc golf terms, you're closer to that unicorn that gets shaped into a 100mph pitcher in the MLB than you are to the average person. Just to probe you a bit on this: what do you think the reasonable expectation for an adult learner getting into disc golf who is otherwise athletically average/body type with no extreme levers etc if psychology and poor training don't get in the way? E.g., if you had a crystal ball, where would you expect Robbie to top out?

I wonder about all kinds of reasons probably that people get stuck at a ceiling (all of which I am interested in). Josh from Overthrow shared some data on this with me at some point but that's not necessarily the same as answering what the potential expectation is.

I do remember watching RC throw and thinking that it never really looked like he was getting the full commitment of the chain in the move and there is something very different in his arm kinetics compared to top throwers, but I haven't looked closer in a while.


I don't find it weird/off-base and welcome you joining the party!

On the learning/sports crossover: I still think it's a really weird motion in general for the reasons you mention and more. I also think the basic idea of generally taking your eyes off the target through such a large move with this weird quasi-rearward-facing-while-coiling-while-whipping-thru-a-cycle yada yada is prone to all kinds of failure points. I still also wonder if what's just plain harder for adult learns is 20, 30, 40+ years of mostly moving forward and using their eyes to do motor coordination/reach goals, throwing or otherwise. Sidewinder once suggested I close my eyes completely like Val Mandujano and it helped some things. But clearly I'm still at it for other issues otherwise lol. I responded very well to hammers but only via martial arts connection & others don't, etc. And I used to do a lot of spinning backfists that also very briefly take eyes of the target in the backhand direction but that also didn't just make everything work. Any new tool or crossover I use takes some time to figure out how to make it help rather than nothing or hurt.

On the ball specifically, I also do find the coil against the disc/flatter object functions kind of different than ball in a few ways that can be easily tripped up (personally). Leverage is different, end point hit/release mechanics are a bit different etc. My body kind of got the point of the coil from the ball very quickly but getting it into the disc was like an entirely different problem (for me).

Agree about force/counterforce and rounding. That's still what happens to me when I start trying to throw for distance when I haven't in a while (to say nothing of cleaning up the apex/angle control after that).


Hear hear

I hear ya - bump on my response/thought experiment above if you don't mind thinking about it/sharing experiences.

With the hyzer/ anhyzer part - I think the big differences are from OG until 2.0 working on anhyzer was this :
OG form anhyzer was probably more intuitive for me b/c balance and weight were back further versus hyzer more closer to balls of my feet, my shoulders were less vertical overall with higher pull line, and I naturally developed the pronation-supination from backswing to release which was very natural with the anhyzer.
Once I adjusted my current form to the points above, made the anhyzer much more natural and easy again.

W/ regards to Robbie C. I am not trying too critical on him, just found it interesting especially since Mike S. is a highly skilled coach that charges I believe $150/ hr/session ?
The lack of shoulder/hip separation is evident along with things I mentioned earlier, that just stick out to me. Plus to a coach, he seems like an ideal student, one that will put in the work, is a thinker, and tries to understand things to be able to teach them as well.

Forgot to add, avg adult assuming healthy and has 2 legs and 2 arms, with training at min. should be able to at least throw 400ft with control driver.
But with Robbie C. I would venture to say he should at least be able to sit at a controlled 425ft up to 450ft range at least.
 
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I will add this bit of historical info/background as well:
So when I literally started playing and reached out to Chris Woj for some coaching as you may know. ( think he is still unable to log into his account here lol )
But from the start I naturally felt comfortable with what I called at the time, steering wheel like grip ( brief case ) style, and in the very beginning I was releasing everything on anhyzer, throwing those S curves. Sidewinder has shared the OG video clip of Chris Woj demonstrating severe wing down hyzer aka spike hyzer, but he used that extreme to get me to stop releasing anhyzer for everything. It def worked, and I still use that drill to this day,
I am not sure if that significant or not, the fact out of the gate, I naturally was doing that.
Through last year of Disc Dog training and practice with Jericho and solo, the true hyzer form feels so natural now of course.
 
With the hyzer/ anhyzer part - I think the big differences are from OG until 2.0 working on anhyzer was this :
OG form anhyzer was probably more intuitive for me b/c balance and weight were back further versus hyzer more closer to balls of my feet, my shoulders were less vertical overall with higher pull line, and I naturally developed the pronation-supination from backswing to release which was very natural with the anhyzer.
Once I adjusted my current form to the points above, made the anhyzer much more natural and easy again.
Interesting. Curious if you have any clips of what you're doing in DD form at some point. I had initially trouble with getting off hyzer plane in general but then once I shifted to windmill I gained a new level of angle control quickly. But it sounds like you had more significant shifts to get these effects.

W/ regards to Robbie C. I am not trying too critical on him, just found it interesting especially since Mike S. is a highly skilled coach that charges I believe $150/ hr/session ?
The lack of shoulder/hip separation is evident along with things I mentioned earlier, that just stick out to me. Plus to a coach, he seems like an ideal student, one that will put in the work, is a thinker, and tries to understand things to be able to teach them as well.
Yeah no worries I always am just curious/not trying to criticize any given person specifically. So in that case InInstIn's suggestions are interesting. I think there are minimally a number of psychological blocks various people struggle with.

Forgot to add, avg adult assuming healthy and has 2 legs and 2 arms, with training at min. should be able to at least throw 400ft with control driver.
But with Robbie C. I would venture to say he should at least be able to sit at a controlled 425ft up to 450ft range at least.
I don't find this crazy. There's probably some expected age curve but before significant age declines I think you're talking about a repeatable ~62-63mph swing or so (with control).


I will add this bit of historical info/background as well:
So when I literally started playing and reached out to Chris Woj for some coaching as you may know. ( think he is still unable to log into his account here lol )
But from the start I naturally felt comfortable with what I called at the time, steering wheel like grip ( brief case ) style, and in the very beginning I was releasing everything on anhyzer, throwing those S curves. Sidewinder has shared the OG video clip of Chris Woj demonstrating severe wing down hyzer aka spike hyzer, but he used that extreme to get me to stop releasing anhyzer for everything. It def worked, and I still use that drill to this day,
I am not sure if that significant or not, the fact out of the gate, I naturally was doing that.
Through last year of Disc Dog training and practice with Jericho and solo, the true hyzer form feels so natural now of course.
Do you remember/have the link to that Woj video? Couldn't find it on seabas22 channel. Sad Woj can't get in here - I sort of noticed he wasn't around recently, worse than a lost password?

Funny too you mentioned steering wheel since there's a clear connection to windmill/sidebend cycle that I understood before, but couldn't figure out how to get it into arm kinetics/the disc. Seems like now that I can in the windmill the steering wheel grip makes way more sense to my body. Like I can make the motion as compact as holding a literal steering wheel and literally feel that little "surge" in my hand while moving without even throwing the disc.
 
Interesting. Curious if you have any clips of what you're doing in DD form at some point. I had initially trouble with getting off hyzer plane in general but then once I shifted to windmill I gained a new level of angle control quickly. But it sounds like you had more significant shifts to get these effects.

I should also mention, remember how I said I approached it as blank state, and I had this negative view of my old form for variety of reasons?
So with that said, it wasn't until shortly after I started throwing Golf discs again towards end of last summer that I allowed myself to get back to the windmill. It was not until I accepted the fact that I did a lot of things that would score an A grade in my OG form, and was seeing that as things came together, things felt right, more like my OG form was what the road lead back at the end of the day .

So I think that would explain a lot of it too, along with the balance points and less vertical shoulders for the anhyzer.

Does that help understand a little ?
 
Yeah let me try to find that Woj clip, might take some time unless he has it available.

Yeah I always resonated with " steering wheel" I'm not sure where the brief case things came from or when? I wouldn't say I'm relaxed , free of tension while holding a brief case . lol
 
This drill really taught me the power of the disc pivot, b/c I could just bend over with arm down then launch the disc in a super water tower level height vertical spike hyzer. Most of that launch power seemed to come from the disc pivot, so then I reduced hyzer level until I was at a stock throw, but doing in a super slow, little arm speed, just focusing on the disc pivot / strong finish. I recall thinking oh damn, its like my wrist is a catapult is how I looked it then.

When I spoke with Woj a month or so back, he asked me what I thought was something not mentioned at all by people that might be a key attractor holding them back from more distance. I mentioned one thing with him in his throw for example, he needed to get right shoulder more extended in the backswing like DFD or holding one 1 arm barefooting waterskiing or wake boarding or I mentioned to him as mental image - feels of dislocating shoulder bc its in extended out more.
* he immedicably said oh wow, yeah that feeling I get when I do the bent over spike hyzer drill he taught me. So that was the connection he needed for him to make association with his current frame work.

That extended shoulder disassociated feeling b/c its being powered and pulled by the glute/core/body - I remember once I was throwing elite distances that feeling and how it was vital in creating slightly longer lever, but w/ being pulled taut became more whip like feeling during spine/thoracic rotation combined with the arm movement. I did not articulate it as such at the time, but the feeling painted a picture and formed an association in my brain and mental image of what was happening.
 
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Nice, I remember that one now. Very similar to how GG illustrates his move, great arms move alike.

Yeah it is pretty fun, and kinda crazy the vertical height you can get just doing it like a stationary drill with just arm.
 
Yeah it is pretty fun, and kinda crazy the vertical height you can get just doing it like a stationary drill with just arm.
Since I throw like this for developing distance form it does lead to a preference for relatively high-apex shots with discs understable enough to hyzerflip, reach the apex, and then do whatever is intended after that. I expect it to take at least a couple weeks in the field/on course this spring to convert the windmill mechanics into more optimal distance flights. Going to prioritize the mixed open/wooded course near me for my weekly round in the meantime since it does force some height control/gaps at various distances and has a couple opportunities for controlled bombs. Hopefully I can keep getting control over the Comets & if the "easy distance" was any indication with those I should be able to figure it out on drivers again eventually.
 
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Since I throw like this for developing distance form it does lead to a preference for relatively high-apex shots with discs understable enough to hyzerflip, reach the apex, and then do whatever is intended after that. I expect it to take at least a couple weeks in the field/on course this spring to convert the windmill mechanics into more optimal distance flights. Going to prioritize the mixed open/wooded course near me for my weekly round in the meantime since it does force some height control/gaps at various distances and has a couple opportunities for controlled bombs. Hopefully I can keep getting control over the Comets & if the "easy distance" was any indication with those I should be able to figure it out on drivers again eventually.
Living in the PNW these days, I've completely lost the ability to throw with height. I pretty much only throw cock-high fastballs
 
Living in the PNW these days, I've completely lost the ability to throw with height. I pretty much only throw cock-high fastballs
I'm going to throw a couple extra on the lowest lines in your honor. Like a whole different game out there.

Speaking of windmill actions , did you Catch my post about rope flow in my 419 thread ?
I did and was going to reply. I haven't tried fitness ropes but sewer bill also mentioned chains. Both made immediate sense to me.

Still love this video btw lol
 
Round notes:

1. Cold, tired, and wrong shoes but overall productive.
2. Continued project windmill. Varied speeds and windmill shape and size whimsically to the shot. Went pretty good overall again.
3. Highlight: Took up the @itinstin low ceiling challenge and was successful 4/4 somehow. But I also see why PNW or Heimburg evolve in low ceiling environments. Lots of reps with comets probably helped. Apex control and speed control can improve on low liners.
4. Mixed result: tried opening up the move once more like Wiggins and immediately felt the potential but front side collapsed/Comet came out early and gone in the woods. RIP for now. Potential was clearly there tho so I'll get back to it in field/open holes.
5. Focusing on rear side/visualizing Gibson off arm was most effective at tightening the whole move up. Probably should keep working on this again now.

Homework:
1. Work on Gibson off arm/don't spill beverage.
2. Work on balance/commit everything thru release point as move RoM increases.

Bonus:
1. Changed FH windmill direction and it immediately worked better.

2. @419HondaGuy I've always enjoyed EDM and various hybrid beats, and recently with hip hop under/overtones. Recently discovered Odesza and have it as a Pandora seed. I like these because I can switch my attention to the slow rhythm when I need to smooth it out or the sharper beat when I need more Krump/staccato.



 
The problem with low liners is that you need to have a cannon to get anywhere. You lose a bit of the concept of "flying" the disc. IOW, it becomes more of a projectile

Played a hole today with no ceiling to deal with and noticed a couple of things:
1. It's so much easier to get 400'+ when you can throw with 20-30' of height
2. I strong-arm the disc… a lot


Also, Comets are pretty awesome. So old-school, but fantastic for carving up woods
 
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