• Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
    It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)

Form critique request

@Brychanus how much time would you say has to elapse between the reachback finishing and the brace landing before you'd consider the reachback too early?

Seems like many pros actually have finish a split second early and have to wait before the brace lands so I'm wondering if those two events being perfectly timed is even a good goal. Perhaps it is part of those effortless power throws where everything was well-timed, or maybe it's not as long as you are within a certain amount of delay between the two.
 
@Brychanus how much time would you say has to elapse between the reachback finishing and the brace landing before you'd consider the reachback too early?

Seems like many pros actually have finish a split second early and have to wait before the brace lands so I'm wondering if those two events being perfectly timed is even a good goal. Perhaps it is part of those effortless power throws where everything was well-timed, or maybe it's not as long as you are within a certain amount of delay between the two.
You can hold tension for some time without losing a lot of elasticity. Scott isn't fully pulled taut yet here below, although he has the arm/disc back. He still keeps stretching the whole system as the front heel kicks into the plant.
Screen Shot 2024-06-07 at 11.37.46 PM.png
 
@Brychanus how much time would you say has to elapse between the reachback finishing and the brace landing before you'd consider the reachback too early?

Seems like many pros actually have finish a split second early and have to wait before the brace lands so I'm wondering if those two events being perfectly timed is even a good goal. Perhaps it is part of those effortless power throws where everything was well-timed, or maybe it's not as long as you are within a certain amount of delay between the two.
 
@Brychanus how much time would you say has to elapse between the reachback finishing and the brace landing before you'd consider the reachback too early?

Seems like many pros actually have finish a split second early and have to wait before the brace lands so I'm wondering if those two events being perfectly timed is even a good goal. Perhaps it is part of those effortless power throws where everything was well-timed, or maybe it's not as long as you are within a certain amount of delay between the two.
Agree w/ above.

I found it instructive to mess with (1) how long you can delay and maintain the elastic loading using things like the door frame drill or double dragon and then (2) how slow vs. abrupt the effect can unload when landing in the plant. I needed the feedback from the door frame and wall first myself; not everyone does.

For power, theoretically the shorter levered you are, the more being abrupt and quick the shift into the plant carrying momentum unimpeded through the x-step matters since you can't rely on the long leverage. Conversely, the momentum matters insofar as you aren't spoiling the loading from reachback to finish.

I do think there is some variability even in top throwers in terms of exact timing. So:

This little motion from Gibson contains it all, then you can just practice different postures and making it longer or shorter, or slower and then more abrupt, etc. Shame his feet are cut off in the first two, so look at the last one or Sidewinder's for precision on those. Feel it out, test when you feel like your arm is going to explode the disc out vs. come out sluggish, when the ground is helping or hindering the action of the leading lat and shoulder and arm or not, which one is quicker at lower effort, etc. Find the sweet spot(s).

xbGoq1R.gif


F7hBZmu.gif


Gibson has exceptional control over his shift mechanics & I have been using these little moves a lot visualizing him to reinforce what I am learning now. Most developing players can't do this drill move as well as he can & it is directly related to what is missing in their move:
7JHJfZU.gif


GG uses a different variant of the common "swinging upward nose down" move that I think is less common and harder to do correctly for most people especially in X-step/hop, but might trigger some insights into your question. I like practicing Gibson's with less lean because I have trouble with the balance process thru the rear leg transition (like almost everyone else) and the GG lean can hide issues from you if you don't already know what they are.
FHcQvUS.gif
 
Last edited:
Agree w/ above.

I found it instructive to mess with (1) how long you can delay and maintain the elastic loading using things like the door frame drill or double dragon and then (2) how slow vs. abrupt the effect can unload when landing in the plant. I needed the feedback from the door frame and wall first myself; not everyone does.

For power, theoretically the shorter levered you are, the more being abrupt and quick the shift into the plant carrying momentum unimpeded through the x-step matters since you can't rely on the long leverage. Conversely, the momentum matters insofar as you aren't spoiling the loading from reachback to finish.

I do think there is some variability even in top throwers in terms of exact timing. So:

This little motion from Gibson contains it all, then you can just practice different postures and making it longer or shorter, or slower and then more abrupt, etc. Shame his feet are cut off in the first two, so look at the last one or Sidewinder's for precision on those. Feel it out, test when you feel like your arm is going to explode the disc out vs. come out sluggish, when the ground is helping or hindering the action of the leading lat and shoulder and arm or not, which one is quicker at lower effort, etc. Find the sweet spot(s).

xbGoq1R.gif


F7hBZmu.gif


Gibson has exceptional control over his shift mechanics. Most developing players can't do this drill move as well as he can & it is directly related to what is missing in their move:
7JHJfZU.gif
Awesome, thanks.
 
Might've come across an interesting cue for more speed / power but haven't tested it with the tech disc yet because I'm trying to avoid too many hard throws, hence the focus on putting lately because I need more rest days to recovery from overuse knee pain from pickleball and then too much disc golf exacerbating it.

But of course I can't resist while practice putting to rip a few here and there and mess with form, hah.

I heard Kuoksa in a vid say something like "I have high speed footage evidence that my chest not only stops rotating but starts turning backwards a bit", I think this is close to the hit moment. It might've been in his vid on DG Spin Doctor where he mentioned it.

This immediately made me think of the advice to "don't over rotate" and "stay closed for longer" and pointing how closed the biggest arms are at close to the hit. However, whenever trying the swing thought to "stay closed for longer" it always felt too passive during a point where you are being explosive and therefore too weak and ineffective of an intervention.

But I randomly remembered Kuoksa talking about the chest moving backwards and thought about trying this as an active aggressive intervention cue while I was ripping a few putters (basically thinking about right after starting the pull through trying to override-reverse the explosive torso motion). It sounds aggressive and jerky but it's just that I need to think about doing something very powerful just to get a little bit of that action so it wasn't actually aggressively jerky. It felt weird and counterintuitive for a few throws of course because it seems like you are fighting yourself, but very quickly started feeling really snappy and good.

I'm excited to try it with the tech disc after some more rest and see if it's fruitful. I've been having a hard time lately hitting mid to upper 60's like I usually can every tech disc session, probably because of guarding my knee pain too much even though it doesn't really hurt during bracing or playing but have also been working on slower smoother footwork and tucking the off arm elbow more.

The prominent feeling when I tried this cue was feeling the left side of the chest trying to pull back to slow down the right side, and of course the off arm counter balance / swim move helps with that, but thinking about doing that with the off arm never gave me this strong of a feeling, probably because for a long time since pretty early on (~2 months in looking back on my form progression vids) I already had my off arm decently close and counterbalancing back a bit so putting more attention on that / the swim move directly only felt like minor adjustments.

The the only other time I might've felt something similar might've been when I tried aggressively swinging the off arm in while getting close to the brace because I think with it coming in early and aggressively it then is ready and wanting to counterbalance harder to pull the left side of the chest back harder.
 
Might've come across an interesting cue for more speed / power but haven't tested it with the tech disc yet because I'm trying to avoid too many hard throws, hence the focus on putting lately because I need more rest days to recovery from overuse knee pain from pickleball and then too much disc golf exacerbating it.

But of course I can't resist while practice putting to rip a few here and there and mess with form, hah.

I heard Kuoksa in a vid say something like "I have high speed footage evidence that my chest not only stops rotating but starts turning backwards a bit", I think this is close to the hit moment. It might've been in his vid on DG Spin Doctor where he mentioned it.

This immediately made me think of the advice to "don't over rotate" and "stay closed for longer" and pointing how closed the biggest arms are at close to the hit. However, whenever trying the swing thought to "stay closed for longer" it always felt too passive during a point where you are being explosive and therefore too weak and ineffective of an intervention.

But I randomly remembered Kuoksa talking about the chest moving backwards and thought about trying this as an active aggressive intervention cue while I was ripping a few putters (basically thinking about right after starting the pull through trying to override-reverse the explosive torso motion). It sounds aggressive and jerky but it's just that I need to think about doing something very powerful just to get a little bit of that action so it wasn't actually aggressively jerky. It felt weird and counterintuitive for a few throws of course because it seems like you are fighting yourself, but very quickly started feeling really snappy and good.

I'm excited to try it with the tech disc after some more rest and see if it's fruitful. I've been having a hard time lately hitting mid to upper 60's like I usually can every tech disc session, probably because of guarding my knee pain too much even though it doesn't really hurt during bracing or playing but have also been working on slower smoother footwork and tucking the off arm elbow more.

The prominent feeling when I tried this cue was feeling the left side of the chest trying to pull back to slow down the right side, and of course the off arm counter balance / swim move helps with that, but thinking about doing that with the off arm never gave me this strong of a feeling, probably because for a long time since pretty early on (~2 months in looking back on my form progression vids) I already had my off arm decently close and counterbalancing back a bit so putting more attention on that / the swim move directly only felt like minor adjustments.

The the only other time I might've felt something similar might've been when I tried aggressively swinging the off arm in while getting close to the brace because I think with it coming in early and aggressively it then is ready and wanting to counterbalance harder to pull the left side of the chest back harder.
Couldn't resist and snuck a short tech disc sesh. Been stuck around 60 lately instead of usual 65-67 for a while and a handful of different form tweak tests haven't really changed my recent speed stats at all. But then after a tournament there was a local MPO player with a tech disc doing form reviews because he was associated with the tournament and it was after 2 grueling rounds in crazy heat at a long course, and of course I threw 65 first throw of his tech disc. So maybe it's also just that I've thrown the tech disc and done different tests so many times now that it's mental and I'm able to as easily recruit full effort in 'just another tech disc sesh' context.

Also, once my power got to a certain point, I stopped having to throw full effort off of most tees, so for quite a while now the tees where I used to go 85-90% are now like a comfortable 70% and maybe I've gotten too comfortable and used to throwing that effort.
 
Low effort form from front and back view.

Back (and side) view always seems to look like my elbow drops more than front view shows whenever I get both views and try to throw the same.

 
You are too over your toes throughout the whole x-step and losing hip depth/extending rear knee.
neil simon plant hip depth.png
 
You are too over your toes throughout the whole x-step and losing hip depth/extending rear knee.
View attachment 343106
What part of these lines show me being more over my toes than Simon?

The yellow lines look like Simon's upper body is leaning more to the toe side than mine, but then the hip line connecting the two hips makes it look like his hips are back further.

So it's not upper body being too over the toes that you are pointing out since it appears Simon is doing more of that?

Would sinking back into the hips more be a good thing to try? Seems like that might get my hips back further while still having the upper body leaning toeside.
 
You are too over your toes
I've tried to work on this before from you and @Brychanus mentioning it, but I don't think I understood until now how to really address it because 'too over toes' isn't clearly pointing out that it's really an issue of NOT sinking into the hips that makes you too over your toes.

I think it might be more immediately understandable to many people if it's explained as: close a car door with your butt (sink back into your hips), then after that motion, engage your core muscles to make sure you aren't extending your lower back. Almost everyone has probably closed a car door or something with their butt before so it's intuitive.

Part of my problem was the lower back extension you pointed out before, trying to not do that lead me to not sink into the hips enough because that makes it easy to get into lower back extension if not used to avoiding it during that motion.

Doing that cue of closing car door with my butt + then making sure I'm not in lower back extension immediately gives me a different feeling of balance over my feet while still having that upper body hyzer lean. But without that cue, trying to not be too over my toes while still having a hyzer lean felt at odds with each other.

Excited to try this now and see what happens.
 
Buttwipe/Inside Swing Drill.
View attachment 343163
Does it look like I got some of it implemented in these throws? I hit 64-65 four times in a row at the end (only 2 recorded) and I've been stuck at 60-62 for a while lately despite normally hitting 64 and 65 every session since I first got it a while back. So it seems like it helped a good amount.

 
1. I'm not a big fan of the cue sticking the butt out. The close the car door cue is better, but not sure it's the best cue because your CoM doesn't really move. You really want walk/fall back or ride your butt(CoM) on the car door until it closes(Hershyzer) and keep leveraging your mass against the closed door/car. Note in Inside Swing Drill how my hips hinge back while knees don't really bend and head stays back inside the wall/feet and everything on the rear side moves/walks back away from wall going into backswing.

neil car door vs inside swing posture walk back.png
giphy-downsized-large.gif

giphy.gif


2. I'm not a huge fan of presetting the posture like that, it makes you a bit rigid and robotic and you can't use as much gravity to fall/accelerate into motion. I like to start more like a pitcher standing tall and then getting more athletic as motion increases. I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher start in a crouched position or stay in a position.

I thought that with your climbing background you might have picked up on the repelling cue I did here 2m50s:
giphy-downsized-large.gif


 
1. I'm not a big fan of the cue sticking the butt out. The close the car door cue is better, but not sure it's the best cue because your CoM doesn't really move. You really want walk/fall back or ride your butt(CoM) on the car door until it closes(Hershyzer) and keep leveraging your mass against the closed door/car. Note in Inside Swing Drill how my hips hinge back while knees don't really bend and head stays back inside the wall/feet and everything on the rear side moves/walks back away from wall going into backswing.

View attachment 343270
giphy-downsized-large.gif

giphy.gif


2. I'm not a huge fan of presetting the posture like that, it makes you a bit rigid and robotic and you can't use as much gravity to fall/accelerate into motion. I like to start more like a pitcher standing tall and then getting more athletic as motion increases. I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher start in a crouched position or stay in a position.

I thought that with your climbing background you might have picked up on the repelling cue I did here 2m50s:
giphy-downsized-large.gif



Yeah the repelling cue is good, I'll have to try that more. I thought about it before and felt around in practice swings with it but it didn't click probably because of it the stance differences making it feel weird to try to do it laterally in a closed stance while coiled vs repelling which is open stance and uncoiled.

However, there might be a more direct translation with a traversing climbing move where you lean your weight out right against your left arm to then press upwards on your right foot. I'll have to keep an eye out for a spot where I can feel that move out to see if it seems like a good candidate.
 
@sidewinder22 in this pic you shared on the nose angle thread do you know what launch angle you and GG are throwing?
I'm assuming I'm throwing a decent bit higher of a launch angle and maybe that makes me want to tilt the shoulders too much. Maybe I can use less shoulder flexion to get the same higher launch angles without the shoulder plane tilt.

I don't think I tilt the shoulder plane that much on lower tunnel shots but it's been a while since I've seen a side view of myself on one of those shots. Maybe I'm subconsciously overly worried about feeling like the upper body is going to topple over the brace if I level out the shoulder plane but my brace would probably just automatically adjust to be further out to handle that if needed.

1719167225557.png

What's more confusing is you also point out the upwards shoulder pitch as a good thing here, so it's pretty hard to understand what you are pointing out as being not ideal with that shoulder pitch (green = good orange = not ideal??)
1719188491811.png
 
Last edited:
Top