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Form critique request

My launch is actually higher than yours.
View attachment 343384

GG's first shot here:


My first shot here:

So it's the down then upward arm movement to increase the launch angle more than the shoulder pitch in your case and GG's? GG doesn't come up that much it guess but his amount of hyzer makes a higher launch angle more accessible from that position, I think.

I just edited the post moments before your reply, lol. I just added in this pic of Paige because it's confusing, why is it good that her shoulders are pitched up?

1719188727828.png
 
The point of that photo is that Paige is not crossing the streams.
pp vs am crossing streams.jpg
 
So then from your perspective, when not crossing streams, when should the shoulders be pitched upwards vs level vs slightly down?
I think it largely depends on your arm slot and type of shot. Your highest launch with the windmill had the flatest shoulders.

If you look at GG, JohnE, and Wysocki they almost always have the shoulders downhill and pronating in followthru, vs McBeth and PP who are typically more supinated with higher arm slot.
neil windmill td.png





 
So then from your perspective, when not crossing streams, when should the shoulders be pitched upwards vs level vs slightly down?

I think it largely depends on your arm slot and type of shot. Your highest launch with the windmill had the flatest shoulders.

If you look at GG, JohnE, and Wysocki they almost always have the shoulders downhill and pronating in followthru, vs McBeth and PP who are typically more supinated with higher arm slot.
FYI just wanted to say that this recent discussion is all part of the mechanics I have been trying to articulate in terms of how the shift & flow of ground force "up" the chain interacts with the "top line" (shoulders, arm, wrist, hand).

I hadn't paid as much attention to it recently until Sidewinder mentioned it here, but I started paying more attention to some of the larger & lower body & ground force parts of the move and how they interact with the "top line." I think I am starting to believe that the arm slot is a very important part of that.

You might recall that my form is somewhere on the very vertical extreme (Sidewinder predicted it several times over, and I gradually ruled out other possibilities*). Motor tasks & crossovers like "drop the hammer out from the chest" make literal sense to my body at this point. I.e., parts of the move literally feel like doing that when I throw now.

I think the combination of being me very vertical, very low arm slot, and gradually increasing the North-South shift of the axis is part of why Sidewinder (or now me to some extent) see the problem of the end of the move/tip of the whip/leverage and action through the arm) a bit differently.* I didn't get any of the action working until I did the actions he pointed out in the revolving door plus those many other drills. Then it just happened very suddenly one day recently when the individual actions connected. The windmilling or pendular part of the move people like GG use made some more sense to me afterwards. It does not work without the correct ground force/top line interaction - I have tried it and all the parts need to work together for it to work at all (in terms of low effort distance driving, and recall that I developed to throw on various degrees of extreme hyzer for developing power shots). I think the shoulder mechanics part SW is talking about for the launch angle/flat shoulders makes intuitive sense to me now to the point where I no longer think about it, but it seemed absolutely baffling before.

Of course I can't know for sure in your case without more of your testing, but I'm increasingly curious what will happen to your TD reads and interpretation of your data if you follow his lead on the recent points.

I still find the detailed conversation about the end-of-arm action interesting and share your enthusiasm for specificity, so I hope it continues.

*Reminder about N=1 anecdotes/body type/avoiding overgeneralizing for any lurkers: I have a negative ape index, an "inverted" lever sequence in the top line, and very short legs for my height (6'1'', 30" inseam (generously)). I am physically slightly less top heavy than I used to be but still unusually very long in the spine and massive above the legs, and have short fingers and wide short feet and toes. Motor background was hitting and dancing more than throwing or running or jumping. Any or all of these things may influence what works "best" for me so far, can't really know.
 
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if you follow his lead on the recent points.
That's the hard part, I'm not totally clear on what to try to change.

The shoulder pitch angle pointed out isn't necessarily a problem it sounded like based on the reply to my follow up question. Not entirely sure.

If you tell me something specific you think would be good to try doing I'll try it.
 
That's the hard part, I'm not totally clear on what to try to change.

The shoulder pitch angle pointed out isn't necessarily a problem it sounded like based on the reply to my follow up question. Not entirely sure.

If you tell me something specific you think would be good to try doing I'll try it.
TBH in your case I'm not 100% sure either. It is all part of the same theme about balance and transitioning off the rear side. The weight shift and load onto the rear leg is a "top 5" problem in form for adults. I'm going to try a "forest and not trees" approach here. IIRC a few things you said recently on the forum I will try to integrate those, too. Of course, I can always be more detailed or specific. Maybe sidewinder will give you a different or specific cue. Here we go.

1. Trying to copy the revolving door spin move might help if you pay attention to how your body shifts back and forth for highest power at lowest effort. But of course, people move revolving doors in all kinds of ways in the real world that are not the most efficient action.

2. You talked earlier about sitting down w/ the car door - I don't 100% remember what you are emphasizing, but I think part of what confuses everyone is how these guys are transitioning off the rear side because it's not just about "sitting." They are athletically walking, running, or hopping. I would say posturally they are both "comfortably seated" in transition, but that doesn't really help everyone do it because you can find more than one way to sit down in a car or chair, can't you? And in real life when you interact with a car, you're probably not first trying to heave the door away from you and then jettison it out in front of you (like throwing a disc). Frustrating. Maybe slam the car door with the revolving door action if you don't value the door.

ViqHhv3.gif


3. However, there is another issue here shared with revolving doors and slamming car doors. I would encourage you to stare at what Simon and GG's rear side/drive leg and hip are doing relative to the arm a few hundred times. Their pumps both actually start somewhere around the time the step before the X-step is leveraging the ground, leading their mass forward, then they revert back into the reachback/backswing at the natural moment that it will cause their rear side to maximize balance and dynamic stability while loading their core and lat until they land in the plant. I'm saying it that way to focus you on the function rather than the details of the action, which (probably) differ based on a few variables.

Just watching your overall action again, I am now remembering we previously talked about side bend, and IMHO that is fundamentally related to how you load and shift off the rear side, which is the same as setting up the shoulder plane, ideally, and likely explains some of the differences in your stillframe analyses and differences among top pros. If your shoulder is doing what it's doing, to me, it almost always indicates that you have not developed part of the independent neuromuscular control in the context of your form, which is probably something that needs to happen prior to it becoming automatic and fluent enough to contribute to power and consistency.

4. Maybe something in my own learning history might help. I will forewarn you that this is another area where if you try it, you should expect to suck more at first.

When talking about side bend, part of the action but it is not as obvious in some forms. You asked Tamm about it and he wasn't aware of consciously doing it. However, anatomically you cannot load the oblique slings and lat muscles (power sources) without it. It does not need to be very large to be effective, and because it involves the orientation and trajectory of the arm relative to the body and the way your core functions, it necessarily relates to how you walk your weight back onto the rear leg and shift forward.

Most adult learners have trouble integrating it with the lower body because (a) the final action is ideally small and compact, and therefore easy to miss when looking at advanced motion (Gibson is my favorite example since he uses a medium arm slot and a "door frame"-like backswing), (b) if it's foreign, your brain resists integrating it because you become less reliable at first and the mechanics all the way through the arm change, and (c) they have not used the weight shifting action that facilitates the ground force transfer in the sequence. Tamm is doing it here, which is why it looks briefly like the disc is coming back toward us as the body is moving forward, whereas in a side view the disc appears to never move back away from the target.

0cqkOus.gif


Gibson is doing it here:
xbGoq1R.gif



It is part of why the last part of my move looks so "explosive" here after I plant - the obliques and lats are unloading abruptly - which smoothed out again a bit afterwards when I started working on the rear side transition and balance again. I don't feel like I'm doing any work (but I do eventually get tired/overuse if I throw too much). Notice how "low" my leading shoulder is - it's not about the shoulder as much as the overall athletic posture landing compressed by the time I plant:
vcJgp4R.gif


This functions (probably) due to the fascial load and stretch in addition to muscle load and stretch and feels very foreign to people. It doesn't work nearly as well if I have poor tilted balance, which is the same as saying that I need the ground force to transmit sufficiently well to get the effect. It is also a consequence of the posture I use between horizontal and vertical shoulder/swing plane (mine is quite vertical which is why it looks like I end close to an uppercut, but of course still not completely). It also happens very fast in mature form over a small range of motion. In x-step I can't really do it like Simon with his out-in-out plant leg pattern for any degree of power (personal/N=1 issues), but I can sort of do it like Gurthie or Gibson now for power. Recently it is becoming much more consistent but I had to be extremely patient and allow sufficient rest (even more patience).

Btw, I am consciously avoiding terms like "lag" and "separation" because people just tend to get more confused, and IMO they argue past one another with nothing to be gained because they are not actually communicating about the physical actions - just what they think they see on camera. Happy to talk more about that since it does involve some fairly interesting theory but most of the data comes from very few and epistemically limiting sources.

6. Fair warning: When I was working on roughly the same problem you have here, there were quite a few weeks where my body couldn't figure out where the shoulder plane and sequence were supposed to go relative to my lower body. First, I was always too ahead of my shoulders and shift and slightly out of posture and out of plane, and I would always tend to swing "over the top" of my brace. Then I had to exaggerate it with dingle arms and the move below a lot. During that time, even as I was getting hang of the drill, I then went through phases where either the shoulder was trying to stay too down and far back for too long, or still coming off plane (habit and balance). Notice here again how he is "dingling" the leading shoulder lower than the rear shoulder. Gravity is helping dramatically boost the entire move, which is why it helped me throw farther with less effort.

iuApJmP.gif


rqyCJMs.gif

Jpk6InY.gif


I needed to do revolving door, golf swings, door frame drills, and lots of heaving weighted objects back away from the target while I was shifting my weight forward to induce both the side bend and the fascial loading and unloading. I have some physical limits in my rear leg & hip but in any case I recall it took me some time after doing all of those things before I achieved something "passable" I could reliably use. In other words, I gained more neuromuscular mastery of the upper body part of the move and it is still always more challenging to make it function ideally with the lower body part of the move.

Focusing on throwing more ballistically in the vertical (disc or ball plane) like distance golfing guys in an open field ignoring where the discs went at first helped me, too. I still warm up with a few "wild" throws when I do distance work now. I also have implemented a stricter "pitch count" again because at close to 40, I can tell you that what these guys are doing is ultra-elite athleticism even if it "feels" easy once your moving above some quality threshold lmao:

WmfQ23X.gif



7. It is possible that you are also always trying to bring the shoulder plane "too horizontal" over the front leg. Almost all adults do this at first. Try throwing more like a golf swing. It will fundamentally change the sequence and posture. Almost everyone struggles with that, too. I have worked with a couple people who play golf and their disc golf backhand development is roughly proportional to how advanced or not their golf swing is. My dance instructor of 50 years' experience noticed the same between golf and waltz.

As always, IMHO, YMMV, DTMWFI, etc.

Now go back and watch Simon and GG again.
 
Last edited:
TBH in your case I'm not 100% sure either. It is all part of the same theme about balance and transitioning off the rear side. The weight shift and load onto the rear leg is a "top 5" problem in form for adults. I'm going to try a "forest and not trees" approach here. IIRC a few things you said recently on the forum I will try to integrate those, too. Of course, I can always be more detailed or specific. Maybe sidewinder will give you a different or specific cue. Here we go.

1. Trying to copy the revolving door spin move might help if you pay attention to how your body shifts back and forth for highest power at lowest effort. But of course, people move revolving doors in all kinds of ways in the real world that are not the most efficient action.

2. You talked earlier about sitting down w/ the car door - I don't 100% remember what you are emphasizing, but I think part of what confuses everyone is how these guys are transitioning off the rear side because it's not just about "sitting." They are athletically walking, running, or hopping. I would say posturally they are both "comfortably seated" in transition, but that doesn't really help everyone do it because you can find more than one way to sit down in a car or chair, can't you? And you're probably not first trying to heave the door away from you and then jettison it out in front of you. Frustrating. Maybe slam the car door with the revolving door action if you don't value the door.

ViqHhv3.gif


3. However, there is another issue here shared with revolving doors and slamming car doors. I would encourage you to stare at what Simon and GG's rear side/drive leg and hip are doing relative to the arm a few hundred times. Their pumps both actually start somewhere around the time the step before the X-step is leveraging the ground, leading their mass forward, then they revert back into the reachback/backswing at the natural moment that it will cause their rear side to maximize balance and dynamic stability while loading their core and lat until they land in the plant. I'm saying it that way to focus you on the function rather than the details of the action, which (probably) differ based on a few variables.

Just watching your overall action again, I am now remembering we previously talked about side bend, and IMHO that is fundamentally related to how you load and shift off the rear side, which is the same as setting up the shoulder plane, ideally, and likely explains some of the differences in your stillframe analyses and differences among top pros. If your shoulder is doing what it's doing, to me, it almost always indicates that you have not developed part of the independent neuromuscular control in the context of your form, which is probably something that needs to happen prior to it becoming automatic and fluent enough to contribute to power and consistency.

4. Maybe something in my own learning history might help. I will forewarn you that this is another area where if you try it, you should expect to suck more a first.

When talking about side bend, part of the action but it is not as obvious in some forms. You asked Tamm about it and he wasn't aware of consciously doing it. However, anatomically you cannot load the oblique slings and lat muscles (power sources) without it. It does not need to be very large to be effective, and because it involves the orientation and trajectory of the arm relative to the body and the way your core functions, it necessarily relates to how you walk your weight back onto the rear leg and shift forward.

Most adult learners have trouble integrating it with the lower body because (a) the final action is ideally small and compact, and therefore easy to miss when looking at advanced motion (Gibson is my favorite example since he uses a medium arm slot and a "door frame"-like backswing), (b) if it's foreign, your brain resists integrating it because you become less reliable at first and the mechanics all the way through the arm change, and (c) they have not used the weight shifting action that facilitates the ground force transfer in the sequence. Tamm is doing it here, which is why it looks briefly like the disc is coming back toward us as the body is moving forward, whereas in a side view the disc appears to never move back away from the target.

0cqkOus.gif


Gibson is doing it here:
xbGoq1R.gif



It is part of why the last part of my move looks so "explosive" here after I plant - the obliques and lats are unloading abruptly - which smoothed out again a bit afterwards when I started working on the rear side transition and balance again. I don't feel like I'm doing any work (but I do eventually get tired/overuse if I throw too much). Notice how "low" my leading shoulder is - it's not about the shoulder as much as the overall athletic posture landing compressed by the time I plant:
vcJgp4R.gif


This functions (probably) due to the fascial load and stretch in addition to muscle load and stretch and feels very foreign to people. It doesn't work nearly as well if I have poor tilted balance, which is the same as saying that I need the ground force to transmit sufficiently well to get the effect. It is also a consequence of the posture I use between horizontal and vertical shoulder/swing plane (mine is quite vertical which is why it looks like I end close to an uppercut, but of course still not completely). It also happens very fast in mature form over a small range of motion. In x-step I can't really do it like Simon with his out-in-out plant leg pattern for any degree of power (personal/N=1 issues), but I can sort of do it like Gurthie or Gibson now for power. Recently it is becoming much more consistent but I had to be extremely patient and allow sufficient rest (even more patience).

Btw, I am consciously avoiding terms like "lag" and "separation" because people just tend to get more confused, and IMO they argue past one another with nothing to be gained because they are not actually communicating about the physical actions - just what they think they see on camera. Happy to talk more about that since it does involve some fairly interesting theory but most of the data comes from very few and epistemically limiting sources.

6. Fair warning: When I was working on roughly the same problem you have here, there were quite a few weeks where my body couldn't figure out where the shoulder plane and sequence were supposed to go relative to my lower body. First, I was always too ahead of my shoulders and shift and slightly out of posture and out of plane, and I would always tend to swing "over the top" of my brace. Then I had to exaggerate it with dingle arms and the move below a lot. During that time, even as I was getting hang of the drill, I then went through phases where either the shoulder was trying to stay too down and far back for too long, or still coming off plane (habit and balance). Notice here again how he is "dingling" the leading shoulder lower than the rear shoulder. Gravity is helping dramatically boost the entire move, which is why it helped me throw farther with less effort.

iuApJmP.gif


rqyCJMs.gif

Jpk6InY.gif


I needed to do revolving door, golf swings, door frame drills, and lots of heaving weighted objects back away from the target while I was shifting my weight forward to induce both the side bend and the fascial loading and unloading. I have some physical limits in my rear leg & hip but in any case I recall it took me some time after doing all of those things before I achieved something "passable" I could reliably use. In other words, I gained more neuromuscular mastery of the upper body part of the move and it is still always more challenging to make it function ideally with the lower body part of the move.

Focusing on throwing more ballistically in the vertical (disc or ball plane) like distance golfing guys in an open field ignoring where the discs went at first helped me, too. I still warm up with a few "wild" throws when I do distance work now. I also have implemented a stricter "pitch count" again because at close to 40, I can tell you that what these guys are doing is ultra-elite athleticism even if it "feels" easy once your moving above some quality threshold lmao:

WmfQ23X.gif



7. It is possible that you are also always trying to bring the shoulder plane "too horizontal" over the front leg. Almost all adults do this at first. Try throwing more like a golf swing. It will fundamentally change the sequence and posture. Almost everyone struggles with that, too. I have worked with a couple people who play golf and their disc golf backhand development is roughly proportional to how advanced or not their golf swing is. My dance instructor of 50 years' experience noticed the same between golf and waltz.

As always, IMHO, YMMV, DTMWFI, etc.

Now go back and watch Simon and GG again.
Thanks, lots to chew on. Hopefully I don't choke :ROFLMAO:
 

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