Pinching the disc and snapping the wrist

[HB2017]

I believe it is the pinching of the disc as the elbow extends that is responsible for pivoting the disc around a hooked index finger. Pinching the disc with the wrist flexed causes the tendons that cross the back of the wrist to tighten. You can pinch/grip things much more forcefully with the wrist in a neutral position. Pinching down hard as the disc is pushed away from center causes the wrist to "snap" back to neutral as your mind & body are trying to find the optimal wrist position for pinching/gripping something forcefully (i.e., neutral).

This is the "hit/tendon bounce/steely snap" concept that has been around forever of but I have not seen that concept explicitly linked to the pinching of the disc. I think this clearly explains how to effectively use the wrist to eject the disc out of the hand. Also it shows that the wrist is very much active but you do not engage it properly by directly extending it, but rather indirectly by pinching the disc hard with a flexed wrist as the elbow extends.

Try this: put the disc in the power pocket and extend the elbow, applying as little pinch pressure as possible. Now do the same only pinch the disc as hard as you can. You should feel an immense pressure in the wrist.

Every pro is doing it but I see this action very clearly in Matty O's throw and also in his pre-shot routine. I've incorporated that little shadow swing he does (albeit with less shoulder rotation) and I think it's a good way to cue the hit without thinking too much about what's happening.

 

[Sheep]

my brain is so done for some reason.
i'm trying to figure out what your' saying. I think i need to come back.

 

[RowingBoats]

I believe it is the pinching of the disc as the elbow extends that is responsible for pivoting the disc around a hooked index finger. Pinching the disc with the wrist flexed causes the tendons that cross the back of the wrist to tighten. You can pinch/grip things much more forcefully with the wrist in a neutral position. Pinching down hard as the disc is pushed away from center causes the wrist to "snap" back to neutral as your mind & body are trying to find the optimal wrist position for pinching/gripping something forcefully (i.e., neutral).

This is the "hit/tendon bounce/steely snap" concept that has been around forever of but I have not seen that concept explicitly linked to the pinching of the disc. I think this clearly explains how to effectively use the wrist to eject the disc out of the hand. Also it shows that the wrist is very much active but you do not engage it properly by directly extending it, but rather indirectly by pinching the disc hard with a flexed wrist as the elbow extends.

Try this: put the disc in the power pocket and extend the elbow, applying as little pinch pressure as possible. Now do the same only pinch the disc as hard as you can. You should feel an immense pressure in the wrist.

Every pro is doing it but I see this action very clearly in Matty O's throw and also in his pre-shot routine. I've incorporated that little shadow swing he does (albeit with less shoulder rotation) and I think it's a good way to cue the hit without thinking too much about what's happening.

I am not sure I follow this, but there is also a chance that I do.

Are you saying that a static tight grip is aiding acceleration though? I am mostly trying to understand your drill idea at the bottom and don't fully get it.

I do agree that there is an acceleration component that is at least related to tightening the grip. It is similar to throwing out a jab. You don't throw a jab with a tight static grip, nor one that stays loose. I'm not an expert on the mechanics, but there is a clear acceleration benefit to 'whipping' the fist shut.

I have commented about this in the context of drumming as well. You learn a lot about harnessing momentum into acceleration to play drums well, and the overall 'whip' concept, and even some of the hand feel, helps me with disc golf.

 

[HB2017]

There is a stretch-shortening cycle happening in the tendons which cross the back of the wrist. I think the sequence of events is something like this, starting with the disc fully in the power-pocket:

-elbow begins to extend
-inertia of disc pulls wrist into more flexion, causing tendons on back of wrist to become stretched
-disc is pinched hard, causing tendons on back of wrist to rapidly shorten
-rapidly shortening tendons extend the wrist, final lever in the kinetic chain "fires", disc pivots around index finger

This is obviously speculation on my part but I think there's something to it. IMO you want the grip pressure to be very light until the pinch so as to get the full benefit of the stretch-shortening effect. Per the article, the elasticity stored in the tendons has a half-life of about 850 milliseconds, so you don't want to "use it up" by gripping hard too early.

As far as how this relates to actually improving my throw, I've just been focusing on keeping very light grip pressure until I extend the elbow. If nothing else it has me focusing on the hit.

 

[timothy42b]

-elbow begins to extend
-inertia of disc pulls wrist into more flexion, causing tendons on back of wrist to become stretched
-disc is pinched hard, causing tendons on back of wrist to rapidly shorten
-rapidly shortening tendons extend the wrist, final lever in the kinetic chain "fires", disc pivots around index finger

Maybe the slo mo video sheep is working on will make it more clear. You might be on to something, but I don't see how it can be exactly what you describe.

If the disc pivots out (and until proven that's still an if) then it is because the disc has sufficient inertia moving one direction and the finger applies a counterforce in a different, maybe even opposite direction. (If the disc rips, it is pulling on the finger; the finger cannot be pushing, even though it is behind the disc at that point.)

The simulations mostly model the wrist as a pin joint, so in those it can't apply force by extending. The Hummel thesis described the wrist as subtracting power rather than adding. But the throw she studied was a bent arm straight pull Ultimate style throw.

 

[HB2017]

To put it in terms of opposing motions, there are two forces acting at the hit (as I currently see it).

The outward motion is what I was attempting to describe in the first post: the stretch-shortening of the tendons on the back of the wrist, triggered by the pinching of the disc (no earlier than when the disc is fully in the pocket).

The opposing inward motion is the arm being pulled in by the shoulder, which is pulled in by the hips. By "in" I mean to the right (or "east") for a RHBH, when viewing the golfer from the back of the teepad.

There is stretch-shortening happening across the shoulder/scapula (and other joints). The already protracted scapula is staying in protraction as the disc enters the power pocket and the connective tissue of the right-side upper back/shoulder is being stretched. The scapula then goes into retraction as the lead shoulder opens and pulls to the right/east and the connective tissue of the upper back/shoulder is shortening. This action is providing the inward force to complement the outward force generated by the wrist, thereby generating parametric acceleration.

I realize this is difficult to read, it's such a rapid and dynamic sequence of movements, I feel it would be much easier to explain and demonstrate in person. I don't claim that this is exactly what is happening and I don't think I've discovered something new. Seabas's "Oblique Sling" video is touching on the same thing. We are in the early stages of understanding the disc golf swing, pretty much where ball golf was 15 years ago before motion capture. The disc golf throw has many parallels to ball golf and baseball but at the end of the day it's its own thing.

 

[timothy42b]

I retract my earlier thought, I think I'm wrong. I'm not sure what right is, though.

 

[Sewer bill]

It would be cool to see a tech disc with a force sensor giving info on grip pressure.

 

[HB2017]

It would be cool to see a tech disc with a force sensor giving info on grip pressure.

I would love to see this, I think most ams are gripping hard too early.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I would love to see this, I think most ams are gripping hard too early.

There was a bit of YT content creation earlier this year on grip and some people were experimenting with tighter grips on the discs, but I think what's come out of that is there is an acceptable range most people need to follow in terms of how hard they grip the disc. Too hard and you'll just get a louder snap and more pain. Not hard enough and the disc will fall out of the hand early. For awhile when I was experimenting with grip strength I was gripping so hard that my fingers would hurt 1-2 minutes after every drive. For no noticeable benefit in terms of flight or distance. But man it sounded great!

I think grip is largely individualized, but you have to find that range that works for you, and that's best determined through experimentation. For me the jury is still out on changing grip pressure/strength during the swing, though I can get onboard with just gripping it only as hard as needed, until just before the moment of release, and increasing it to some extent. But I don't think this idea is commonplace or really explored to any great extent online. (YouTube or otherwise)

 

[sidewinder22]

I was getting golfer's elbow some years ago, found out I was gripping too hard from back of the tee. Once I loosened my grip at the back of the tee and progressively added pressure with the acceleration, it then went away.

When I try to throw lefty(not that I do this regularly) I feel the disc just slip right out. I haven't really tried messing around with pressure timing.

 

[HB2017]

That is interesting. My stance is that, if you're gripping it tight too early, you can't effectively clamp down at the hit because you have already shot your wad with regard to grip pressure. I also think that gripping hard too early causes you to snatch the disc into the pocket, scapula goes into retraction too early and you get that hunched, collapsed shoulder look. I have struggled with this but am seeing good results with keeping the hand soft and the scapula protracted as long as possible.

 

[pierogie27]

I was getting golfer's elbow some years ago, found out I was gripping too hard from back of the tee. Once I loosened my grip at the back of the tee and progressively added pressure with the acceleration, it then went away.

I've been dealing with golfer's elbow for the past couple of months and it's very discouraging. I'll have to give this a try!

 

[Sheep]

Maybe the slo mo video sheep is working on will make it more clear. You might be on to something, but I don't see how it can be exactly what you describe.

If the disc pivots out (and until proven that's still an if) then it is because the disc has sufficient inertia moving one direction and the finger applies a counterforce in a different, maybe even opposite direction. (If the disc rips, it is pulling on the finger; the finger cannot be pushing, even though it is behind the disc at that point.)

The simulations mostly model the wrist as a pin joint, so in those it can't apply force by extending. The Hummel thesis described the wrist as subtracting power rather than adding. But the throw she studied was a bent arm straight pull Ultimate style throw.

I don't think I recorded anything that would make sense with what you're asking there.

I was mainly focused on how the disc releases with different grips and some stuff on disc pivoting.

So the information on the disc pivot stuff is there and I need to not be lazy and just do the video.

But what I ended up with the grip stuff was a lot more questions than answers and after a few days of working on it more and asking myself more questions, I came to some pretty interesting conclusions that I've already real world tested on 2 players.

And here is the skinny on that with my theory. I theorized that we are teaching grip incorrectly. And, I believe I'm correct still based on this. However, as mentioned in this thread. Grip is fairly relative to each individual. We teach a one size fits all method to grip, and its wrong. Our wrists and arms don't flex and bend all the same.

I'm trying to pay attention in video though right now with guys like simon and others to see if they are closer to what I came up with as well vs what people normally teach as grip.

The stuff about the pivot and release though, I theorized that people have no clue what the "nose" of the disc is during the throw. And sunk a battleship with that one.

 

[Sheep]

I've been dealing with golfer's elbow for the past couple of months and it's very discouraging. I'll have to give this a try!

A majority of people death grip the whole way.
Loose until youre almost in the pocket.

 

[ChrisinFL]

A majority of people death grip the whole way.
Loose until youre almost in the pocket.

I struggle with that! I have tried various grip adjustments, and they seem to make no difference, but I am almost certain one of my issues is not figuring out yet how to keep my grip loose, then tighten or add extra thumb pressure just before releasing.

 

[Kennets]

To be fair, it's not something I notice.. unless!! I get a one in a million throw where I put a move on it .

It feels like I gradually gotta tighten the grip harder from the pocket and out, for it to stay in my hand. Such a strange sensation.

 

[drk_evns]

I death grip the thing from beginning to end. I've just recently started intentionally loosening the grip at the beginning of the throw and allowing it to automatically clamp down later. I don't notice much of a difference other than keeping it loose feels more efficient. I never had much fatigue or pain because of it... I mostly switched because there is a permanent thumb divot in most of my discs.

That being said, I also struggled with tennis elbow for a bit last year. It healed over the winter and never caused a problem again, so I'm not sure if it had anything to do with the death grip.

I don't think I recorded anything that would make sense with what you're asking there.

I was mainly focused on how the disc releases with different grips and some stuff on disc pivoting.

And here is the skinny on that with my theory. I theorized that we are teaching grip incorrectly. And, I believe I'm correct still based on this. However, as mentioned in this thread. Grip is fairly relative to each individual. We teach a one size fits all method to grip, and its wrong. Our wrists and arms don't flex and bend all the same.

@Sheep – got that footage handy?

I feel like most people giving advice are pretty un-prescriptive, generally giving a few fundamentals but telling them to do what's comfortable for them. What are you referencing when you say people are teaching incorrectly and what is it you're teaching differently?

 

[Sheep]

I feel like most people giving advice are pretty un-prescriptive, generally giving a few fundamentals but telling them to do what's comfortable for them. What are you referencing when you say people are teaching incorrectly and what is it you're teaching differently?

I'm still unpacking some of the grip stuff still. I have some private video's on it so far discussing with a few people to try something. But the original plan of that video I should re-shoot at this point because while I have the footage, I forgot what exactly I was doing in those throws, but the footage just got me thinking and to an end result. Which... I don't have footage of the changes I've made to see if its actually a difference in high speed.

And annoyingly enough, I cannot operate the high speed alone.

What exactly do you want to see? It's much easier to answer/show anything that is a more directed question if that makes sense.

And the secondly annoying thing is while I'm willing to talk about some of it. I'm hesitant to make any public video's on some of the stuff because I've had a few times doing that now where suddenly someone else is making my content and giving me no credit.

 

[drk_evns]

What exactly do you want to see?

A hand/release in slow-mo on a drive with good mechanics.

And the secondly annoying thing is while I'm willing to talk about some of it. I'm hesitant to make any public video's on some of the stuff because I've had a few times doing that now where suddenly someone else is making my content and giving me no credit.

What's this proprietary knowledge you are hoarding?! If it's good... let them steal it! Are you saving it to monetize it or something?