Tech disc test driven development

[seedlings]

Switching to bonapane grip this afternoon 'fixed everything' compared to an earlier set. Of course it's only on paper. The same effort throw is faster, more nose down, more spin, similar angle.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Having seen form like that maybe-seppo gif before along with trying more deliberate swooping lately with the tech disc is what lead me to think about this btw, so this is a cool example / reminder to see that form posted.

Whenever I saw stuff like that originally I always suspected it was not a bit not ideal but now after feeling some easier power sometimes and easier nose down it makes me think it's more just another variant of high level form when done well.

I'm also thinking now that it's not as important correcting by the time the disc enters the power pocket, but as it goes through. It's just not something I've been good at in my shadow swings, though I've been able to get the disc oriented well enough as it enters. But this seems to be user-specific, and I may be doing other things wrong beyond the swing that makes that more difficult for me, than others.

I will say this: my goal now is to replicate to the best of my ability what Seppo is doing there. I've been doing a lot of imitation of that sequence in the last hour, and although I don't have it down, it's helping to build a mental model for me for testing next time I practice throwing. I've reached a point where I realize there's stuff beyond the swing that's hurting my ability to throw properly. I do believe the swing needs to be fixed first, but it can be hard to do that if the rest of the body is in a position which prevents it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think it looks more natural for you in your case. It's more pronounced then the Seppo example, but it looks very repeatable to me. I think as long as the wobble isn't too bad. Michael Sizemore from Tech Disc believes 5 and lower is good enough to have minimal effects (I'm paraphrasing), and that's about where I've landed myself. I've been able to lower my wobble from 6.6 - 6.9 down to 4.1 - 4.8 so that gives me hope that further refinement can bring that down a touch more.

yeah I'm exaggerating it a bit here. I tried one subtler but I just turfed it lol because the exaggeration makes it feel very obviously that I'll need to swoop back up at the end but a subtler one doesn't since I'm not used to this style.

My wobble is all over the place when throwing for max speed, I want to get to 3 consistently but am usually happy enough with not going above 5.

But check out this one from tonight lol. I didn't like the look of it but there's a lot of room for variation as long as the final moments come into some alignment.

 

[Kennets]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to get some knowledge on all this "supination, pronation, turn the key, external and internal rotated shoulder" stuff, since I'm having a hard time following some of your comments.

In this video, i do not see a "turn the key motion", but! I do see ulnar deviation, from the pocket and out and if I'm in the pocket (still motion) and "turn the key" whilst being externally rotated, that leads to ulnar deviation, at least for me. Is that the point of "turning the key" term?

I believe SW talks about it in one of his video about unscrewing a jar and that's what I see in most pros form

When you guys are speaking about turn the key, I picture my arm straight forward, palm to the sky. Am I wrong here?

I've watched proctor, mcbeth, eagle, Simon, Ricky and a few others and all of the have ulnar deviation from the pocket and out without any BIG movement in the wrist itself. I would argue that there is some supination.

I'm so confused lol

It might just be the terminology I find confusing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to get some knowledge on all this "supination, pronation, turn the key, external and internal rotated shoulder" stuff, since I'm having a hard time following some of your comments.

In this video, i do not see a "turn the key motion", but! I do see ulnar deviation, from the pocket and out and if I'm in the pocket (still motion) and "turn the key" whilst being externally rotated, that leads to ulnar deviation, at least for me. Is that the point of "turning the key" term?

I believe SW talks about it in one of his video about unscrewing a jar and that's what I see in most pros form

When you guys are speaking about turn the key, I picture my arm straight forward, palm to the sky. Am I wrong here?

I've watched proctor, mcbeth, eagle, Simon, Ricky and a few others and all of the have ulnar deviation from the pocket and out without any BIG movement in the wrist itself. I would argue that there is some supination.

I'm so confused lol

It might just be the terminology I find confusing.

Ulnar deviation is pretty much unavoidable when you curl your wrist. Often times a lot of the ulnar deviation that is seen I think is there because of the wrist flexion but the side on POV can be hard to see wrist flexion, it can look quite straight even when there's a decent amount of wrist flexion.

This POV is either at a height that makes it harder to see the turn the key, or it's because he's throwing on a lot of hyzer that also changes how certain things look, or he just wasn't doing it as much in this throw or at this time.

Palm to the sky isn't the best indication: put your arm out where the hit would be and palm up, then lean forward a lot into a hyzer without moving your arm and your palm being turned a bit more downward by the body tilt changing, now imagine the camera angle is above and looking downward at the hand, it will look like the palm is even more down when those two things are combined.

Here the disc appears to be roughly perpendicular to just below his chest:

In this next frame I believe he's likely turned the key, it looks like the side he isn't holding is being tilted but you'd have to get another angle of this same shot to confirm. But that's not very important since there are many shots of his form that show it much more clearly.



It's easier to see here but still can be confusing, it looks like it's being tilted onto extra hyzer suddenly because the elbow isn't extended out into the hit yet, once it is, that tilt is nose down and the body posture is where the hyzer came from mostly.


This is a really good close up view:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Seeing how many attempts it takes to get close to nose neutral and then very nose down with most of the common grip styles:

 

[jaypay85]

Seeing how many attempts it takes to get close to nose neutral and then very nose down with most of the common grip styles:

Neil putting on clinics... no pun intended.

 

[Kennets]

I think my perception of the term "turn the key" might be different from yours and others in this thread.

When I think turn the key, I think "palm to the sky,flip the disc over (ala OT video) bicep pointing to the sky and shoulder externally rotated" kinda motion.

Do you have any videos where you explain the motion and how the forearm, upper arm and shoulder should follow?

To me and mind you i know nothing: it looks like it's the redirect from the pocket and out (there's a good thread about how the disc isn't going in a straight line from reach back to release somewhere on DGCR) and the force of that, that forces his hand into the motion the you might mean when saying "turning the key" and I would say look like ulnar deviation/pour the tea. And while being bored at work, I noticed that most pros got the same exact motion from the pocket and out.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think my perception of the term "turn the key" might be different from yours and others in this thread.

When I think turn the key, I think "palm to the sky,flip the disc over (ala OT video) bicep pointing to the sky and shoulder externally rotated" kinda motion.

Do you have any videos where you explain the motion and how the forearm, upper arm and shoulder should follow?

To me and mind you i know nothing: it looks like it's the redirect from the pocket and out (there's a good thread about how the disc isn't going in a straight line from reach back to release somewhere on DGCR) and the force of that, that forces his hand into the motion the you might mean when saying "turning the key" and I would say look like ulnar deviation/pour the tea. And while being bored at work, I noticed that most pros got the same exact motion from the pocket and out.

It doesn't force the hand into the turn the key motion, that's why people can shadow swing hard with the disc on briefcase all the way through the hit and follow through. It makes it hard for the disc to slip or spin out if you keep it on briefcase (fully pronated) through the hit, which is perfect to avoid accidentally throwing it during a shadow swing. If you have the intention to actually throw and spin the disc it may feel like redirecting out of the pocket is 'forcing' turn the key because you cannot commit to a real throw without doing that, since the disc won't rip out if you keep it on briefcase like in a shadow swing.

I don't have a vid where I describe how the upper arm and shoulder should follow because I don't think focusing on that is very useful to perform the action and focusing on it is more likely to increase straining yourself too much.

If you try to supinate only and try to do it only on the way out of the pocket and through the hit, the supination will automatically drive the arm to do some external rotation to help support the supination motion, and if the motion is committed through the hit, it will result in carrying the supination and external rotation into the follow through for a bit, but then internal rotation and pronation will usually automatically happen because you can't keep supinating and externally rotating forever, there's no where else to go to relieve the tension but back the other way. If you focus too much on exaggerating turn the key on a hard throw to the point where you keep exaggerating it deep into the follow through, that's where you run into more strain.

James Proctor looks like he is a bit too exaggerated into the follow through to me actually, but that's why he's such a good case to see turn the key more clearly, he does it more aggressively than most. Maybe it won't injure him to do it that aggressively because his body is conditioned over years for it, or maybe the tension is relieved at the last moment more than it looks like. But that's one big reason his follow through looks more distinct than most, same with Isaac I think to some degree.



The amount you actually need to get, say -4, is not that much of turn the key motion, but, at higher speeds, it can feel like a lot to commit to it through the hit with the other forces and heavy disc at play. James' few tech disc stats are like -8 nose mostly from what I recall.

This may or may not help, just quickly recorded to try to sum up a bunch of stuff that hopefully in one video with visuals will be more clear:

 

[Kennets]

Thanks for the video, with a language barrier on my part, spoken words and visualisation are more easy at times.

It's getting late here, so I'll get back tomorrow at some point.

 

[itlnstln]

Ulnar deviation is pretty much unavoidable when you curl your wrist. Often times a lot of the ulnar deviation that is seen I think is there because of the wrist flexion but the side on POV can be hard to see wrist flexion, it can look quite straight even when there's a decent amount of wrist flexion.

This POV is either at a height that makes it harder to see the turn the key, or it's because he's throwing on a lot of hyzer that also changes how certain things look, or he just wasn't doing it as much in this throw or at this time.

Palm to the sky isn't the best indication: put your arm out where the hit would be and palm up, then lean forward a lot into a hyzer without moving your arm and your palm being turned a bit more downward by the body tilt changing, now imagine the camera angle is above and looking downward at the hand, it will look like the palm is even more down when those two things are combined.

Here the disc appears to be roughly perpendicular to just below his chest:
View attachment 351921
In this next frame I believe he's likely turned the key, it looks like the side he isn't holding is being tilted but you'd have to get another angle of this same shot to confirm. But that's not very important since there are many shots of his form that show it much more clearly.
View attachment 351922


It's easier to see here but still can be confusing, it looks like it's being tilted onto extra hyzer suddenly because the elbow isn't extended out into the hit yet, once it is, that tilt is nose down and the body posture is where the hyzer came from mostly.
View attachment 351924

This is a really good close up view:
View attachment 351925

I always like the close up of JP since you can see how gets his eyes down the fairway

JP's "key turn" is definitely along the lines of how Josh explained it in the last OT video vs. a last instant flip of the wrist. When I saw the OT video, I immediately thought of JP as well

Hot(-ish) take coming through: isn't this just getting the disc into position from the briefcase position? It's not something I would have thought needed a discrete term. To whatever extent I briefcase (which is some, but not JP-level), I just get the disc in position in the swing. Are there a significant number of people briefcasing the disc and throwing rollers? My thought is that you would naturally turn the key as part of the swing just to get the disc on line

 

[disc-golf-neil]

isn't this just getting the disc into position from the briefcase position?

Yes to some degree but if I turn it to what feels like into position, that gets me closer to nose neutral or slightly nose down, whereas if I want more nose down, especially on higher launch angles, it feels like you have to turn it into position and beyond. It's less effort to turn it to nose neutral because nose neutral is the most aligned (disc plane angle matches launch angle) so nose down is, in a sense, misaligning the two and in a way that seems less easy to accidentally do than misaligning in the nose up direction.

It's much easier when putting to get the nose down because it's a softer throw and you can just lift the arm more easily to raise the launch angle without raising the nose angle along with it.

Also. When throwing with no briefcase, if you don't turn the key you are more likely to get a bit nose up or nose neutral with an on plane swing. You still need some turn to get it down. I think that's why all my initial practice of trying to follow the advice to throw on plane resulted in my initial tech disc nose angle stats when I got the tech disc were -2 to +4 and the very first session I tried turning the key I immediately got nose down more consistently because it was a familiar enough motion from paddle/racket face angle manipulation.

Many people tho who have pronation memory when trying it will supinate and then accidentally not commit to doing it through the hit and revert to some pronation at the last moment and then feel like it doesn't work for them.

not something I would have thought needed a discrete term.

too many people do the opposite (pronate nose up), if most people naturally did this and were getting nose down there maybe wouldn't be a term for it.

 

[Sheep]

Seeing how many attempts it takes to get close to nose neutral and then very nose down with most of the common grip styles:

How are you accounting for confirmation bias?

 

[seedlings]

I feel like I can get good numbers into the tech disc and that form doesn't translate to actual good results on the course. In other words, my tech disc data gives me another general guideline to consider before each throw on the course.

 

[itlnstln]

I feel like I can get good numbers into the tech disc and that form doesn't translate to actual good results on the course. In other words, my tech disc data gives me another general guideline to consider before each throw on the course.

Is it something along the lines of form improvement adding more distance (and maybe changing how some discs fly a little) and working that into playing golf? Or do you feel like you're throwing differently with the TD than when you play golf?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

How are you accounting for confirmation bias?

It would of course be better if more people would could check for reproducibility, but not a lot of people have a tech disc, and not a lot of people who do have a tech disc have practiced these techniques enough to be a suitable candidate to even try to reproduce something like this video.

In this video, I showed every throw I did except 2-3 where the tech disc save vid feature didn't work, I didn't remove any throws / stats where I missed my goal of nose neutral or very nose down. The few missing vids were successful also just a successful nose down throw I had to repeat to get a vid.

It's just that the technique is so effective when you practice it that it worked within a few tries for every grip (don't turn key but don't pronate for nose neutral and turn it more for nose down). I might've had to end with less supination (nose neutral) or more (nose down) on some grips to accomplish nose neutral and nose down compared to others, but not enough to where it mattered much or made it difficult.

I do try to 'break' things frequently to see how robust they are. In one sense this is a good test to try to disprove turn the key or challenge it by changing other variables (grip) to see if it messes with the effectiveness of the technique.

My existing belief before I got the tech disc was that pour the tea was a good way to get the nose down, I gave it a lot of chances to work and tried to make sure I wasn't failing to implement it, but it ended up not being able to consistent produce nose down results.

These aren't religious beliefs / beliefs that are identity-defining to the point where if you feel them challenged it's like a threat to your entire existence, so it's pretty easy and painless to accept conflicting data especially if it's becomes robust.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I feel like I can get good numbers into the tech disc and that form doesn't translate to actual good results on the course. In other words, my tech disc data gives me another general guideline to consider before each throw on the course.

You haven't been using it very long right?

People get good results when working with coaches all the time and then as soon as they go back to their own devices, they revert to their old habits. It takes a lot of reps.

 

[CoachChris]

It doesn't force the hand into the turn the key motion,

Neil, I'm questioning whether using the term "turn the key" as a catch all for all upper and lower arm rotations in a throw, is the best descriptor. Clearly that term gets some people on edge. The physical act of actually turning a key in a lock is an isolated 100% lower arm supination. As my Mocap analysis showed, both lower arm supination and upper arm external shoulder rotation both play a major role. In my coaching I now try to use the cue "externally rotate your arm" but it may be hard to get away from turn the key.

 

[CoachChris]

It would of course be better if more people would could check for reproducibility, but not a lot of people have a tech disc, and not a lot of people who do have a tech disc have practiced these techniques enough to be a suitable candidate to even try to reproduce something like this video.

Neil, I also have spent a lot of time looking at grips vs nose angle and would generally agree that subtle adjustments in grips that are generally aligned with lifeline, rarely translate to adjustments in nose. However, people who have learned to throw with grips substantially aligned from index knuckle to pisiform bone (heel of hand), diagonally across the palm, have learned to apply a lot of force to the top of the disc (resulting in massive nose up) and are not easy to retrain.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Neil, I'm questioning whether using the term "turn the key" as a catch all for all upper and lower arm rotations in a throw, is the best descriptor. Clearly that term gets some people on edge. The physical act of actually turning a key in a lock is an isolated 100% lower arm supination. As my Mocap analysis showed, both lower arm supination and upper arm external shoulder rotation both play a major role. In my coaching I now try to use the cue "externally rotate your arm" but it may be hard to get away from turn the key.

I do wish there was a better term.

I think the term when talking about mechanics makes sense to encompass both supination and external rotation.

But as a cue I still worry focusing on external rotation could increase the chance of over doing it compared to focusing on supination which will automatically recruit external rotation when more force is required. If the lock got stuck and you had to turn the key harder (risking breaking the key) you'd probably start using external rotation too.

But yeah, it definitely doesn't conjure feelings of an athletic motion to think of turning a key..

Naming things is one of the 2 hard things

Some people have liked overthrow's other description recently of unsheathing a sword. But most people probably have never handled a sword.