Tech disc test driven development

Neil, I also have spent a lot of time looking at grips vs nose angle and would generally agree that subtle adjustments in grips that are generally aligned with lifeline, rarely translate to adjustments in nose. However, people who have learned to throw with grips substantially aligned from index knuckle to pisiform bone (heel of hand), diagonally across the palm, have learned to apply a lot of force to the top of the disc (resulting in massive nose up) and are not easy to retrain.
Yeah I agree about that grip alignment carrying more risk for people to accidentally develop pronation habit. But without that habit it does seem to be one of the few that has a decent impact on nose down.

With that alignment it seems like the thumb gets further in front of the index finger to the point where it can easily get closer to the edge of the rim, leading people to move it deeper into the upper flight plate, and then since it's further in front of the index finger, the thumb pressure has no support underneath which is felt as tension that is relieved with pronation.
 
I do wish there was a better term.

I think the term when talking about mechanics makes sense to encompass both supination and external rotation.

But as a cue I still worry focusing on external rotation could increase the chance of over doing it compared to focusing on supination which will automatically recruit external rotation when more force is required. If the lock got stuck and you had to turn the key harder (risking breaking the key) you'd probably start using external rotation too.

But yeah, it definitely doesn't conjure feelings of an athletic motion to think of turning a key..

Naming things is one of the 2 hard things 🤣
It's pretty evident that images of players entering in to the power pocket with a flat or somewhat hyzered disc shows near max early forearm supination. (Ie Eliezra). From that position, external shoulder rotation is the only thing left. Briefcase hangers need late supination and external shoulder rotation.
 
Neil, I'm questioning whether using the term "turn the key" as a catch all for all upper and lower arm rotations in a throw, is the best descriptor. Clearly that term gets some people on edge. The physical act of actually turning a key in a lock is an isolated 100% lower arm supination. As my Mocap analysis showed, both lower arm supination and upper arm external shoulder rotation both play a major role. In my coaching I now try to use the cue "externally rotate your arm" but it may be hard to get away from turn the key.
Chris could you elaborate on this a bit? I read earlier in the thread you mentioned that some level of forearm supination and external rotation was required to hit even a 0 nose angle. Where I struggle to conceptualize this is how to do that without pinning the elbow to the ribs. (A year ago, I'd have been able to say it would have been impossible because my external rotation in my shoulder is abysmal. But after a crap ton of physio it's now fairly functional and I'd even say downright normal to slightly better than average. Compared to my physio giggling because it was legitimately the worst she'd ever seen. I still struggle with supination in my forearm, I think as a consequence of doing so much olympic lifting where a heavily pronated foreram is the default in a front rack).
 
@disc-golf-neil

I had the time to sit down and watch your video again. Thank you for clarifying a lot of the stuff I were asking about, it made sense.

I could've worded my other post differently, but yeah. Ulnar deviation due to wrist curl (or momentum/weight if the disc) SEEMS like a "byproduct" of another mechanic/force and that's why I pointed it out (when seen with people like Simon throwing).

It may be SO subtle a motion when proctor throws, that my untrained eye can't see it, but here is a question for you.

Wouldn't you think advocating for internal rotated shoulder and supination of the forearm in the pocket would be a better choice than telling people to turn the key or flip the disc in the last moment?

And what would yield best results for a "student"?

Not saying you aren't (cause I know you're always talking about having better mechanics in general, before trying it out) but that's what many people think when they read turn the key.

@CoachChris

If players are entering the pocket with a nearly max early forearm supination, is "turning the key" even a viable option in your eyes or would people be better off focusing on the external rotation of the shoulder (or other stuff)? Not counting on people brief casing.

Not trying to disproof anything here, I'm just curious.
 
Chris could you elaborate on this a bit? I read earlier in the thread you mentioned that some level of forearm supination and external rotation was required to hit even a 0 nose angle. Where I struggle to conceptualize this is how to do that without pinning the elbow to the ribs. (A year ago, I'd have been able to say it would have been impossible because my external rotation in my shoulder is abysmal. But after a crap ton of physio it's now fairly functional and I'd even say downright normal to slightly better than average. Compared to my physio giggling because it was legitimately the worst she'd ever seen. I still struggle with supination in my forearm, I think as a consequence of doing so much olympic lifting where a heavily pronated foreram is the default in a front rack).
This might be a useful visual / thing to try to notice it but interested to see what Chris says.

I'm not saying you should try to maintain the paddle perpendicular to the ground in paddle / racket sports it's just a reference point to use to show that things naturally get moved without intervening movements to maintain the orientation.
 
It's pretty evident that images of players entering in to the power pocket with a flat or somewhat hyzered disc shows near max early forearm supination. (Ie Eliezra). From that position, external shoulder rotation is the only thing left. Briefcase hangers need late supination and external shoulder rotation.
Yeah that makes sense, for people who are already supinated they may need a more external rotation focused cue.

However, I think people who have a lot of supination on the way into the pocket rarely ever maintain that much supination and instead lose some of it and then, if they throw nose down, likely add it back as they enter the hit.

I tried maintaining max supination all the way through a throw and it felt horrible and nearly impossible, it felt like the weight of the disc is constantly fighting you out of it.

It will be interesting to see with more mocap if this is true on people like Eliezra.

It looks like Eli has lessened her external rotation and I suspect lessened supination (hard to see that one) from between frame 1 to frame 4. Frame 2 and 3 look like she is going to get a lot of elbow dip and consequently a collapsed pocket, but then avoids that from happening with some movement in the internal rotation direction.

At frame 4, the disc is roughly perpendicular to the chest, I have plenty of supination range of motion available from this position into the hit, so unless she lacks RoM there, I believe she could still supinate into the hit.

Do you see it differently?
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Neil, I'm questioning whether using the term "turn the key" as a catch all for all upper and lower arm rotations in a throw, is the best descriptor. Clearly that term gets some people on edge. The physical act of actually turning a key in a lock is an isolated 100% lower arm supination. As my Mocap analysis showed, both lower arm supination and upper arm external shoulder rotation both play a major role. In my coaching I now try to use the cue "externally rotate your arm" but it may be hard to get away from turn the key.
This is my understanding of the use of the terms:

Briefcasing: wrist pronation
Turn the key: wrist supination
Pour the tea: ulnar deviation
Curl the wrist: wrist flexion

You can, of course, have the wrist rotate due to the arm rotating at the shoulder, but I think it's better to avoid using "turn the key" beyond wrist supination. When you turn the key to your car, you're generally not rotating your entire arm to do so.

We should be able to clearly define something, and avoid blurring the line as a deliberate act. With that in mind, maybe we can create cues that describes the internal and external rotation of the arm at the shoulder.

(edited for further clarity)
 
Frame 2 and 3 look like she is going to get a lot of elbow dip and consequently a collapsed pocket, but then avoids that from happening with some movement in the internal rotation direction.
I'll just mention that a lot of pros and trainers do this either automatically, or with little mental effort, and they don't even mention it. I've seen a couple people demonstrate the swing in the video, and they just correct the arm even though they start out with it externally rotated some during the backswing. For me, I just never noticed, until I realized I had this problem. Then I happened to watch their videos again at some point later, and realized they were doing this.

I'm glad this is getting the attention it deserves now. As someone who spent a lot of time looking into this issue, trying to understand it, I feel like we're getting into broadcasting this problem to more people, and I think that can help coaches down the line, and students.
 
Wouldn't you think advocating for internal rotated shoulder and supination of the forearm in the pocket would be a better choice than telling people to turn the key or flip the disc in the last moment?

And what would yield best results for a "student"?
You always want to be more internally rotated in the pocket imo, so that's a given in either case.

Being already supinated on the way into the pocket / during the pocket just makes it harder to keep on supinating on the way out which is where it has to happen to actually get the nose down consistently. When you are already supinated, it's easier for things to want to go back the other way (pronation).

When I throw at a comfortable speed, it's easier for me to turn the key on the way out of the pocket because the throw is more slow and smooth. When I throw faster, I accidentally start turning it sooner while I'm in the pocket because I feel rushed since things are moving faster, it feels like I won't have time to do it if I start it on the way out of the pocket. When I notice this happening (turning the key on the way into the pocket / through the pocket) it's more hit or mess whether I have some of the turn the key motion actually making it into the hit.

So if you practice turning the key during the pocket on your slower throws, I'd expect it to be even more likely to turn it even earlier on faster throws and therefore be less likely to have any of it happening into the hit.

When I hold the disc perpendicular to my chest in the power pocket position, to me that feels like I'm supinated a bit, it takes some effort to hold it that way, it's not super comfortable but not too uncomfortable. From this position, I do still have a decent amount of range of motion to supinate on the way out of the pocket which is what I do from that position to throw nose down when I don't briefcase. For some people, this may be easier than briefcasing and then turning it out because the briefcase gives you the feeling of needing to turn it, which may make you want to start turning it early. Whereas holding the disc oriented so it will come into the pocket more perpendicular to the chest doesn't give you that feeling that you have to turn it as much, so you may be less tempted to try to turn it too early--but the flip side is that when it's already perpendicular to the chest at the start of the power pocket I feel less urge to turn the key on the way out of the pocket since it feels like the disc is already aligned enough to throw.

One downside of pulling into the pocket with the disc oriented more perpendicular to the chest is the margin of error for tilting it into opposite briefcase is so small. I do believe in general the opposite briefcase position isn't ideal and more likely often is coupled with other problems, but some pros definitely do it and make it work like the Eliezra pic I posted just before this.

What's best for the student is case by case. A lot of people who didn't naturally develop a briefcase and are already used to not doing it will probably find it awkward for a while, but when I got used to it, to me, it feels less awkward then trying to keep the disc more perpendicular to the chest.
 
This is my understanding of the use of the terms:

Briefcasing: wrist pronation
Turn the key: wrist supination
Pour the tea: ulnar deviation
Curl the wrist: wrist flexion

You can, of course, have the wrist rotate due to the arm rotating at the shoulder, but I think it's better to avoid using "turn the key" beyond wrist supination. When you turn the key to your car, you're generally not rotating your entire arm to do so.

We should be able to clearly define something, and avoid blurring the line as a deliberate act. With that in mind, maybe we can create cues that describes the internal and external rotation of the arm at the shoulder.

(edited for further clarity)
I agree almost completely, but that's why I sometimes make the distinction between cues and mechanics. To me the cue of turn the key mostly only needs to prime supination which results in more mechanics, mainly external rotation being added in, but then it's too cumbersome to rewrite this every time so I just say 'turn the key'.

The cue doesn't have to perfectly represent the full mechanics that happen when it's performed ideally in order for the cue to be useful and effective--sometimes the most popular and useful cues are more indirect ones that don't directly map onto the mechanics when taken literally. I'm not saying turn the key is a great cue though, I just haven't found any good way to describe that motion that has a more intuitive athletic connotation to it.

I personally prefer thinking about and working on the direct mechanics, I personally just think about supinating directly knowing it will result in external rotation as well and then think about when I want to start the supination or use a rhythm so it will sync to the time I want it to happen. I thought about actually turning a key for like 0.5 seconds then focused on the actual mechanics.. I prefer thinking about the mechanics directly when working on form because I want to make sure I don't fall under the illusion of attributing results to the wrong thing. Like, if I never got the tech disc and never heard about turn the key, I probably would've intuitively learned to throw more nose down eventually, but I might've continued thinking about pour the tea the whole time and thought that's what was causing it, when in reality I intuitive started doing something else to actually get results.

But most people don't have enough experience with form work to directly manipulate mechanics so they need some cues to prime the mechanics indirectly.
 
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Neil, I'm questioning whether using the term "turn the key" as a catch all for all upper and lower arm rotations in a throw, is the best descriptor. Clearly that term gets some people on edge. The physical act of actually turning a key in a lock is an isolated 100% lower arm supination. As my Mocap analysis showed, both lower arm supination and upper arm external shoulder rotation both play a major role. In my coaching I now try to use the cue "externally rotate your arm" but it may be hard to get away from turn the key.

It seems more like pounding a square peg in a round hole at this point with the way its talked about.

Turn the key is a really bad que based on what were actually trying to accomplish, which is essentially swing plane alignment.

And to think everyone has came to some conclusion that this is some magic thing cause a guy said it to his girlfriend who'd thrown a disc like 5 times like it was a magic trick for her to throw better.

Stokleys video on it I think really demonstrates it better of what we need to do and what the que should be teaching people, but were teaching it as a technique. Turn the key, if anything, should be used as a training technique to keep your wrist in line and help stop you from pronated throwing, but there are far easier and better ways to really get to that position to fix your technique vs throw on a bandaid.



People have been teaching this all along. "dont come under the disc" which is pronation. we need to let our wrist flex on target line and set our body up to do so.

Part of this is posture and body posture, which your mocap stuff shows, allowing the shoulder to be in line and forearm to be in line to allow the wrist to flex on target.

This idea we need to jerk/roll our wrist or arm or something at the last second by turning the key, vs... I duno. Maybe ... throwing with good alignment and fundamentals to start with?

It's like the same with briefcase carry. Do any of you actually understand how this works? Your not pronating your wrist with a full grip.

If you get in your backswing and I reach out and grab your breifcased disc, it should fall out of your hand or end up in my hand. Its not a full grip pronated. It's a way to let the body relax and stay loose and smooth.

When you briefcase carry, and you come into the pocket and you actually grip the disc, it will automagically pop up into position for you in a good proper grip that is in line with your swing, and because you were loose and relaxed, your shoulder and forearm are going to be more likely to be in alignment with the shot. you're not flipping your wrist up and over supinating. you're literally just gripping the disc and its there.
 
Turn the key, if anything, should be used as a training technique to keep your wrist in line and help stop you from pronated throwing, but there are far easier and better ways to really get to that position to fix your technique vs throw on a bandaid.

we need to let our wrist flex on target line and set our body up to do so.

This idea we need to jerk/roll our wrist or arm or something at the last second by turning the key, vs... I duno. Maybe ... throwing with good alignment and fundamentals to start with?

It's like the same with briefcase carry. Do any of you actually understand how this works? Your not pronating your wrist with a full grip.

If you get in your backswing and I reach out and grab your breifcased disc, it should fall out of your hand or end up in my hand. Its not a full grip pronated. It's a way to let the body relax and stay loose and smooth.

When you briefcase carry, and you come into the pocket and you actually grip the disc, it will automagically pop up into position for you in a good proper grip that is in line with your swing, and because you were loose and relaxed, your shoulder and forearm are going to be more likely to be in alignment with the shot. you're not flipping your wrist up and over supinating. you're literally just gripping the disc and its there.
I agree with a lot of this but I'll just quote the stuff that resonates the most with me:

I think the wrist pronation in the backswing should ideally be wrist pronation in the backswing and early part of the swing, only as little as needed. I know a lot of pros go the extra mile here, and I'm certainly not judging them by doing the full briefcase thing, but I don't see how it's needed by most, or even by those who do it to great effect. It may just be a comfortability thing for them.

The wrist supination through the swing, through the hit and beyond, I also think should be only as little as needed for the shot. Clearly throwers will need to have nose up or down for certain types of shots, so that's a skill worth having, but it shouldn't be to compensate for bad form, but supplemental to good form.

With "pour the tea" we just need the disc down enough so it doesn't cause problems in the swing. Same for "curl the wrist." We just need it curled enough, even if some pros might go overboard for personal reasons.

I just know that when I personally am trying to "go full briefcase" it's a lot more frustrating for me as a person currently fixing my form. The results have been remarkably nose down throws - the likes I've never been able to achieve before, but every other metric got worse, per Tech Disc. And the throws themselves were not good because of it.

I think Sheep here is saying these cues could have some use, but they can also be overused, and that can be detrimental. Does Simon Lizotte have a problem doing the briefcase? Of course not. Is this what new players need to change in their swing? Any of these cues can be overdone to where they create problems in the process of solving others, and you end up with people needing to solve additional problems. 🙂
 
Chris could you elaborate on this a bit? I read earlier in the thread you mentioned that some level of forearm supination and external rotation was required to hit even a 0 nose angle.
If a player starts from power pocket position, forearm horizontal, elbow/upper arm 90°/90°, it is pretty easy to test the range of motion of both forearm pronation/supination and ext/int shoulder rotation. Holding a disc in a briefcase hold is a comfortable pronated forearm. Then, staying in that PP position, see how far you can roll the disc and forearm to flat or reverse briefcase (fully supinated). Each of us have a comfortable range of motion in that position.

From the same PP position, check the range of motion of your shoulder by keeping your elbow somewhat level with your shoulder and in the 90° position, rotate the disc/hand down towards floor as far as comfortable (max internal rotation) and then rotate your forearm in the other direction as far as possible leaving elbow in place. (Max external rotation). In that plane of motion everyone has slightly different amounts they can internally and externally rotate their shoulder however the total range of motion is very similar in all humans. Baseball pitchers can develop massive external rotation but then have limited internal. (Jake Wolff)

In order to get the disc to release at 0° some amount of supination and some external shoulder are required. It is slightly different for everyone. Most pros have been playing since very young and have developed it naturally. If you developed your range of motions from other sports or inactivity, it may be very difficult to get those both aligned at release. Clearly form and grip are an essential place to start.
 
The results have been remarkably nose down throws - the likes I've never been able to achieve before, but every other metric got worse, per Tech Disc. And the throws themselves were not good because of it.
Nick, it takes time. Separate your field/form work from play. While working on nose, don't worry an out other metrics. The results from a good nose angle carry over into all parts of your game and have a very good ROI. Stick with it and give it 6 months.
 
Potentially hot take on the topic of strain in DG.

Even with good form, many athletic movements are inherently straining particularly at a higher level. Even though part of good form is reducing unnecessary strain, a certain amount of strain is unavoidable to throw hard, swing hard, etc. Golfer's elbow, tennis elbow, climber's elbow, tendonitis from lifting--all these happen even to people with good form and who have been conditioned for the activity to a high degree. These issues are way more common for people who: have form problems that add strain, try to do things they aren't conditioned enough to do, don't do preventative conditioning (prehab) or enough rehab when needed, don't rest enough, etc.

Pronating slightly into the hit feels less straining on the elbow than supinating. So people who have been pronating for years and have no supination conditioning in DG or other sports are likely to feel some added strain when trying to start supinating more even if it's just to get to a slightly negative nose angle on a high effort throw. Many of these people will feel additional strain when doing this and instead of conditioning themselves to be able to handle the strain safely, they will likely think it's a bad sign and go back to what they were doing before to avoid injury. This is one area where coaching comes in, coaches who know about this will be able to identify if the strain is more from poor form or just inherent to the motion at higher effort levels, in which case they could prescribe a conditioning protocol with training progressions to get them able to better tolerate the movement.

I got tendonitis in both elbows after climbing for the first 6 months because of overuse combined with increasing the difficulty quickly. I cut how many times a week I climbed and reduced the intensity during the sessions and did a lot of rehab to get over it and it took 6 months. After that I continued prehab for the next 8 years I climbed (and avoided climbing many days in a row) and was able to increase the route difficulty over that period without ever getting it again except for a few small early signs it was an impending risk that I was able to dial it back preemptively to avoid.

I saw so many casual climbers who had tendonitis on and off for many years, they would disappear for a while and show up again with those tendonitis elbow straps and when talking to them, most of them just said they took extra rest (nothing else or very minimal prehab / rehab) and they were stuck in a perpetual cycle of never being conditioned enough to handle it, so it would keep coming back and then they hoped extra rest would magically fix everything. I think it's even easier for people to have this approach / attitude in DG because it's so easy to want to throw further but it's half a casual hobby and half a sport to them or they don't have enough time for fun and training. Many people treat climbing that way too, but they also enter a climbing gym where they see so many climbers cross-training, stretching, doing very targeted conditioning exercises (equipment you've never seen before in other gyms), so it's easier to see how serious one has to take it athletically to progress while avoiding injury whereas in DG you usually don't see that side of it.
 
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I agree with a lot of this but I'll just quote the stuff that resonates the most with me:

I think the wrist pronation in the backswing should ideally be wrist pronation in the backswing and early part of the swing, only as little as needed. I know a lot of pros go the extra mile here, and I'm certainly not judging them by doing the full briefcase thing, but I don't see how it's needed by most, or even by those who do it to great effect. It may just be a comfortability thing for them.

The wrist supination through the swing, through the hit and beyond, I also think should be only as little as needed for the shot. Clearly throwers will need to have nose up or down for certain types of shots, so that's a skill worth having, but it shouldn't be to compensate for bad form, but supplemental to good form.

With "pour the tea" we just need the disc down enough so it doesn't cause problems in the swing. Same for "curl the wrist." We just need it curled enough, even if some pros might go overboard for personal reasons.

I just know that when I personally am trying to "go full briefcase" it's a lot more frustrating for me as a person currently fixing my form. The results have been remarkably nose down throws - the likes I've never been able to achieve before, but every other metric got worse, per Tech Disc. And the throws themselves were not good because of it.

I think Sheep here is saying these cues could have some use, but they can also be overused, and that can be detrimental. Does Simon Lizotte have a problem doing the briefcase? Of course not. Is this what new players need to change in their swing? Any of these cues can be overdone to where they create problems in the process of solving others, and you end up with people needing to solve additional problems. 🙂

A lot of it is the shoulder posture that we need to correct.

We try and keep the elbow up, but there are 2 positions for the elbow, rotated up, and rotated down, we can move our arm in both positions similarly, but one is more powerful than the other.

We tend to over use our arm while throwing, thus rotating the shoulder socket up which isn't powerful. By trying to muscle the disc more our shoulder naturally wants to pull up and over vs down and through using different sets of muscles. You can see this in form checks where people have a really decent swing, but high drive shoulder and no distance.

All goes back to power of posture things.

But we need to also pour the tea somewhat, but also make sure our grip is good enough for the mobility of our wrist and forearm alignment. It's not necessarily complicated, but this is why when a lot of players slow down and stop trying so hard they get SOOO much more distance, they stop rotating the shoulder incorrectly and they don't throw their throwing posture off by trying to huck vs a clean smooth swing using aligned leverage points.

Im not going to say you need to supponate or turn keys to throw, but most people when they get their arm/body out of alignment will naturally pronate in the hit which directs all the power up, and when the disc rotates through it's nose up.

So, turn the key, I think, if explained in the correct context can help people who are pronating badly to get the right que as a training technique to learn the feel.
But as an actual throwing technique, this idea of trying to flip your wrist over or flip discs over your hand is not a wise que. I've heard from a few people trying this stuff hurting themselves already because it's not a natural motion. we need to train ourselves not to pronate and come over top the disc correctly to let the disc rotate in a fashion that is nose down without also getting ourselves out of alignment.

This shouldn't be a method of disc golf, but a way for us to help people understand the right feeling.
And that's the point of Stokleys video with throwing this weird chop over your shoulder annie into the ground, its teaching you to learn the neutral or slightly pronated wrist feel when your wrist pops on the correct line.
I thought it was the dumbest thing ever until I was throwing backhand force rollers and it clicked for me.

But if you try the briefcase as a dangle vs a grip and pronate, you'll find far more success with the dangle method because your body will be loose and relaxed when you grip and rip vs trying to hold on and rotate your forearm in the swing.
We gotta set our bodies up to work as natural as possible and direct it in the correct direction. The more tense you are throwing, the less your body is going to cooperate. Especially if you're over using muscle groups or doing something the body see's as dangerous, it will naturally try and protect itself. And this is where a lot of people run into struggles disc golfing. And its part of good coaching to identify what part of your body is causing the bad chain reaction to get there.
A lot of coaches out there can identify what is wrong, but not always what the root cause is of that problem. Does it go all the way back to the brace, is it a posture thing. Who knows, you gotta really look and learn to back read all the movements and understand the posture and kinetic chain each player generates, because everyone's swing is unique to an extent.
 
All, I'm headed to Rock Hill tomorrow to run the USDGC Distance Championship. 42 players this year (9 women) You may be able to follow the results by going to USDiscGolf dot com and under Events, you can find Distsnce. Also as part of the event, I got Josh from OT to run a TechDisc contest for all distance competitors. Most speed/spin win a TD. I will post the TD link to that data when I know it. It should be fun data to dream about.
 
All, I'm headed to Rock Hill tomorrow to run the USDGC Distance Championship. 42 players this year (9 women) You may be able to follow the results by going to USDiscGolf dot com and under Events, you can find Distsnce. Also as part of the event, I got Josh from OT to run a TechDisc contest for all distance competitors. Most speed/spin win a TD. I will post the TD link to that data when I know it. It should be fun data to dream about.
Thank you, and have fun!
 
So what would everyone say is an acceptable range of comfortable supination and external rotation in that PP position Chris talked about in order to be able to have at least a 0 degree nose angle assuming we're throwing on a relatively correct swing plane? Like everything else in a vacuum. (Can list internal and pronation as well if they're relevant)
 
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