Tech disc test driven development

[biscoe]

Simon's an interesting example, because, although he watches and a ton of DG content and studies / strategizes and has a wealth of knowledge, there are examples that make it seem like he maybe isn't a highly analytical studious type. Like when Paul Ulibarri asked him in a putting vid in Paul's backyard less than a year ago, which finger he feels his thumb pressing on the most with his putting grip, and Simon replies "I've literally never had that thought before." How could someone who thinks deeply about DG and studies DG for decades and does tons of putting practice have never thought about that?

I am much less talented than Simon and started late (28 with a back that was already screwed up) but have been playing for 30 years plus at this point, have put in tons of putting practice, give a fair amount of (simple) lessons, and have never had that thought either.

 

[itlnstln]

Not sure if this fits the conversation, if not, listen to me ramble.

I've spoken to sheep about this privately a lot and I did it today, again.

I know that the learning curve is steadily heading down as we get older and that we need to invest more time in learning stuff, in particular motions we didn't grew up with.

In the last two weeks, my form has gone downhill. I couldn't even throw 300 feet and couldn't hit a line to save my life.

I did fieldwork today and I had a gazillion cues I wanted to work on. "Remember to tilt forward, don't over rotate, plant then throw, scapular protraction, hand on the outside of the disc" etc.

I got completely lost and just started to throw "hard",l and I couldn't get past 300 consistently..

Suddenly thought to myself: how the fuck could I throw 350 when I first started throwing backhands, without a single clue about "form"? Yes, my form were atrocious, BUT. I were loose, just letting my body doing the work and whilst I still lacked the correct form, I do believe we get so lost in cues and stuff, that we forget that if we are loose to an extend, the body will carry the motions better than if we try too much..

Makes sense?

First throw where I just "free-wheeled" it, not caring about shit, I got a Comet to 330 without even trying and got into the 400's again with drivers (okay, 415, but it's something).

I do think that A LOT of people loose the "natural motions" when they get older. Where they either are afraid to hurt themselves so they tense up, or they try too much to force body parts into positions it otherwise would've gotten into on their own..

In conclusion:

Throw hammers

100%. I've been in the same situation where I start over-focusing on a whole bunch of cues and my form suffers as a result. When I get back to "just throw the disc/hammer/axe," things start working again on their own. Granted, it's due to an extensive history in throwing sports that I have the athleticism to do that, but I do think that the information tidal wave of generalized, online form advice leads people to over-analyze and lose the thread on what they're actually trying to do.

Be curious, learn, practice; but do try to find an in-person coach if at all possible

 

[itlnstln]

Simon's an interesting example, because, although he watches and a ton of DG content and studies / strategizes and has a wealth of knowledge, there are examples that make it seem like he maybe isn't a highly analytical studious type. Like when Paul Ulibarri asked him in a putting vid in Paul's backyard less than a year ago, which finger he feels his thumb pressing on the most with his putting grip, and Simon replies "I've literally never had that thought before." How could someone who thinks deeply about DG and studies DG for decades and does tons of putting practice have never thought about that?

Because he's thinking deeply about the feel and action of putting. What finger the thumb is pressing on doesn't put the disc in the basket. In fact, it may change based on distance, available line, stance, etc. What he's probably thinking about is "what grip feels right for the thing I'm trying to do?" To some extent, he's probably not thinking much at all - and that's a good outcome, too. But to get to that point, he's had to put in many years of practice

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Have you read the Syed one? Highly recommend. In some ways the argument is kind of opposite to the sports gene, but it's also very well argued.

To some extent, Epstein focuses on simple athletic talent, whereas Syed is more interested in the complex react-to-the-opponent kind of sports. So they make very different arguments (and Syed does join in with misrepresenting Ericsson, as gladwell did) but some of his examples of the extent to which the brain can be trained are really very interesting.

I haven't yet. I've got a book I'm reading now and then I need to go through one more. I'll probably add it to the list after those.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I am much less talented than Simon and started late (28 with a back that was already screwed up) but have been playing for 30 years plus at this point, have put in tons of putting practice, give a fair amount of (simple) lessons, and have never had that thought either.

Fair enough, it's just more surprising when it's a pro that's been playing all their life and it's their job and life and they also teach to have not thought of a pretty basic-seeming thing.

Fiddling with putting grip seems like a pretty common thing to do when practicing putting / trying to diagnose and fix issues. Slightly moving your fingers directly impacts where the pressure is felt between the thumb and fingers underneath but I guess a lot of people are more about general feelings and not specific.

 

[Sheep]

If the shit works, you don't think about it, you just do it.

This is why most pro's are atrocious teachers. They dont actually think about it, they are just gifted.

Think about basic skills like swinging a hammer, or driving your vehicle.
Are you thinking about finger and thumb pressure on your hammer, or are you swinging it in a successful way?

Driving the car, are you focused really hard on applying a certain amount of pinky pressure? Of course not, its not necessary.

If the shit works, you just keep doing it that way.

There are tons of pro athletes out there too who work off this, then get coaching and get really bad at sports.

Tiger had that issue for a year or 2 after he started getting coaching. Then he figured it out and got even better cause he now had the advanced tools in his bag and could control them.
So, if you throw good and it works, you dont think or care to think about it.

 

[Sheep]

The 10,000 rule was created by Ericsson and he hates what it has become.

I'd recommend the entirety of this article in the very least but will leave an excerpt below:

Full Article

Think back to the "Danger of Delegating" letter. Ericsson's own criticism of the "10,000-hours rule" explains that most of the top musicians in his study had not accumulated 10,000 hours. But the original paper did not include raw data or any measure of variance, so it was impossible to tell how much they actually accumulated. It only gave an average, which by its very nature obscures individual differences, so how was anyone to know how much the musicians had actually practiced? To give chess as an example, a study found that it takes 11,053 hours on average to reach international master status in chess, but one player made it in 3,000 hours, and another needed 23,000 hours. So you can have an "11,053-hours rule," but it doesn't tell you much about the reality of human skill acquisition. Giving only an average tells a misleading story.

Can't tell if you missed the point, didn't read what I wrote or referenced... or were more interested in trying to make some sort of correction.

10k was the average from the study, rounded I'd guess.
I posted that article because it articulates that its a baseline/idea/goal. Might take one person 4,000 and another 20,000. But Ericsson is quoted in it talking about all of that.

The whole point I was making was you gotta put in the time to be good. Doesn't mean it has to be 10,000 hours.

 

[biscoe]

If the shit works, you don't think about it, you just do it.

This is why most pro's are atrocious teachers. They dont actually think about it, they are just gifted.

Think about basic skills like swinging a hammer, or driving your vehicle.
Are you thinking about finger and thumb pressure on your hammer, or are you swinging it in a successful way?

Driving the car, are you focused really hard on applying a certain amount of pinky pressure? Of course not, its not necessary.

If the shit works, you just keep doing it that way.

There are tons of pro athletes out there too who work off this, then get coaching and get really bad at sports.

Tiger had that issue for a year or 2 after he started getting coaching. Then he figured it out and got even better cause he now had the advanced tools in his bag and could control them.
So, if you throw good and it works, you dont think or care to think about it.

Right. I putt well. It has never seemed uncomfortable. Why look for a problem that isn't there?

 

[Sewer bill]

Fair enough, it's just more surprising when it's a pro that's been playing all their life and it's their job and life and they also teach to have not thought of a pretty basic-seeming thing.

Fiddling with putting grip seems like a pretty common thing to do when practicing putting / trying to diagnose and fix issues. Slightly moving your fingers directly impacts where the pressure is felt between the thumb and fingers underneath but I guess a lot of people are more about general feelings and not specific.

I have the exact same putting grip and pressure for all putts but the one variable besides the stroke that drastically effects my consistency is the friction. If it's cold outside I slip slightly and have to compensate. Changing grip has never yielded me good results.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I have the exact same putting grip and pressure for all putts but the one variable besides the stroke that drastically effects my consistency is the friction. If it's cold outside I slip slightly and have to compensate. Changing grip has never yielded me good results.

I didn't mean actively changing grip while real putting but while practicing and trying to figure out why it's not feeling right to investigate.

However, I think I do probably sometimes slightly increase my grip pressure due to that friction issue you mentioned and maybe on higher speed putts. I'm lazy too when it's just a practice round and don't clean the dust off my putters and so there's less friction and I need more grip pressure for it to not start slipping.

I also started hooking the pinky on the rim, I didn't use to like that, but after I got better at putting and revisited it, it became an option I could choose and have started choosing more often. Partly because it feels like you don't have to rely on perfect friction on the remaining fingers as much, the putter isn't going to move until the pinky decides it's time to let it. It also feels like you can feel the build up of pressure from the momentum and wrist starting to uncurl all concentrated into that one point, the pinky, and then release it all at once.

I can still putt mostly just as well with my pinky not even touching the putter or fanned out, it's just started to feel a bit more consistent to have that one very solid point that holds it in place easily.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Because he's thinking deeply about the feel and action of putting. What finger the thumb is pressing on doesn't put the disc in the basket. In fact, it may change based on distance, available line, stance, etc. What he's probably thinking about is "what grip feels right for the thing I'm trying to do?" To some extent, he's probably not thinking much at all - and that's a good outcome, too. But to get to that point, he's had to put in many years of practice

I just think in theory it's easiest to replicate a consistent grip if you have more precise feel indicators to guide you.

Especially with something as finicky as putting where it's so easy for it to feel very different and wrong even tho it seems you are doing the same thing.

You can grab a putter and have it fall into your normal grip effortlessly due to tons of reps, for sure, but when it's so effortless and intuitive and then it suddenly stops working and feeling off, I think it can be even more perplexing because people in that situation are often grasping at fleeting feelings and intuitions to get try to recover.

I do typically just grab the putter and my normal grip is automatically set and then putt without much hesitation like this:


But when it starts to feel off, I can fall back to a checklist / a series of steps to initialize the grip and a series of more fine grained adjustments to ensure all finger locations and key pressure points are consistent. and Then I can be assured my grip being off / different is very unlikely the problem and then focus on finding the actual problem elsewhere.

 

[timothy42b]

I just finished The Sports Gene and it was my introduction into David's work. It was reaaaaaalllly good. A little brainy for me but interesting nonetheless.

Yes, I thought it was an excellent read. Who knew that some people have a mutation that lets them not get caught doping when they blood test? And the whole ratio of limb dimension thing was interesting.

He also wrote Range, about generalists vs specialists, and I think we have been making hiring decisions completely wrong forever. But I digress.

 

[RowingBoats]

Lol this isn't directed at you Neil, I get what you are doing, but I also am a shit poster so here we are.

 

[itlnstln]

View attachment 354395

Lol this isn't directed at you Neil, I get what you are doing, but I also am a shit poster so here we are.

Too real

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Yes, I thought it was an excellent read. Who knew that some people have a mutation that lets them not get caught doping when they blood test? And the whole ratio of limb dimension thing was interesting.

He also wrote Range, about generalists vs specialists, and I think we have been making hiring decisions completely wrong forever. But I digress.

Dang it. Going on the list! lol

 

[Sheep]

Right. I putt well. It has never seemed uncomfortable. Why look for a problem that isn't there?

Thats the over arching thing I keep getting at over and over again.

It's great to know all the nuances, but we keep going into the weeds looking for things, not asking any questions and not asking anyone else if they seen it.

Then when someone says otherwise, they are wrong.

I just don't understand the dynamic of trying to have a discussion to watch experienced people be told they are incorrect.

I'ma get some hats made "make disc golf simple again."

 

[Sewer bill]

Thats the over arching thing I keep getting at over and over again.

It's great to know all the nuances, but we keep going into the weeds looking for things, not asking any questions and not asking anyone else if they seen it.

Then when someone says otherwise, they are wrong.

I just don't understand the dynamic of trying to have a discussion to watch experienced people be told they are incorrect.

I'ma get some hats made "make disc golf simple again."

It's like when you get a real fancy obd2 scanner and you really want to go chasing a misfire from in the cab instead of checking under the hood. You'll get there eventually but p0300 can be as easy as spraying some water on the manifold while the engine is running and looking for the dead cylinder.

This thread has yielded some neat information though.

 

[jaypay85]

Yes, let's go to the forums under technique and strategy... and let us not discuss technique or strategy...indeed. But we can discuss certain things but only the ones I think are relevant.

 

[Sewer bill]

This thread really is like any dyno section of a drag racing forum.

The data is available, the experienced people are seated at the table, so naturally everyone has to argue. It comes with the territory.

 

[Sheep]

Things in disc golf seem to come up over and over. Spin and throw, double move, squish the bug. All the new "coaches" want to bring them back around as like they discovered some special thing. They didn't, they have been disproven like someone beating a dead horse. I fell for one or 2 of them myself at one time. This is why exploring is important, and learning is important, but it's also very important to listen to experience.

Just like a dyno and vehicles. There are a lot of things we can do to really crank up the HP on an engine. That doesn't mean its right. And the above examples are some of those. Like running really aggressive timing on a motor. Yeah, you'll make some massive horse power, for a minute. Then the motor goes bang. Just like a motor and a car, our form needs to have all the proper supporting components to build the big dog power, and continue to make use of that big dog power.

The point of that being. Tech disc is a dyno graph. I've said this like 100 times now. Just because it gives you a measurement doesn't mean that the underlying theory behind how you got there is correct. Especially when we are only drawing from one data source.

But... It doesn't mean we are not learning. Because we are learning stuff in here. And that's good. But the problem comes down to someone with experience giving advice or feedback and the response is "my dyno graph says it works, you're an idiot."
That's how I keep seeing a lot of responses in here when someone questions any of the data. It's okay to question things.

And as we do know, tech disc is trickable too just like a dyno graph. Especially if you're trying to achieve certain data. You can do this on a load dyno. I won a bet on this. Long story short... That guy stopped talking to me over the bet of them rigging their dyno to fake their results. As well as how they were getting their numbers. And the few cases of windowed blocks that were "hushed" up over that guys tuning. "But the dyno says...."
We got on a proper inertia dyno at a big truck meet and the numbers were so drastically different on their tunes that the dude lost face and never spoke to me again. He sadly just passed away this last year.

This isn't all to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. But that we have to be careful when it comes to cognitive bias trying to collect data. Measuring devices can be tricked and skewed. And the more data sources we have, the better data we can gather overall. And there are many of us in here with devices to measure and a few of us in here with a lot of experience. But ... if anyone else notices, none of us are doing it and replying with the data.....
So, be careful with the accolades about how great the info is, you might be falling for a trap of resurfacing something like the "double move" but don't have the background to understand that the technique is out of place.

I dont want stuff like this to stop. Just for people to stop thinking I'm here to be a negative a-hole for no reason. I'm just throwing my 2 cents on the table, and the push back I get is like I've stabbed a baby or something, good lord.