Tech disc test driven development

[Sheep]

I still maintain that the Beto drill is simultaneously the best and worst drill ever conceived lol.

yes, i feel this way as well.

 

[Sheep]

I get what you're saying here. Horizontal abduction is the movement of the arm. Scapular retraction is the movement of the shoulder blade, and the kinetic energy (or whatever) comes from the shoulder moving the arm. I think this has been a core problem for me. Not that this isn't occurring, but my swing is still fundamentally flawed, so these actions don't occur properly for some reason I can't fathom.

No matter what I do, I still have these problems with my swing. And to be clear, I was expressly focusing on protraction leading up to the peak of the backswing, and letting the body do what it wants after that, and hopefully it works out. But it doesn't because of some underlying issues. Such as:
View attachment 356317
1) The throwing shoulder is elevated. I can't even tell it's happening. But the elbow drops, shoulder shrugs, and the disc swoops mid-swing, and I end up with pretty consistent nose-up throws (average is now down to 2, but still gets up to 8 degrees above launch in my Tech Disc tests.
2) I'm still too upright. I'm actually tying to be upright with the slightest of hyzer tilt, but on video review I look like I'm almost about to fall over backwards.

There's more than that but it's late and I'm tired. Regardless I appreciate this discussion. I'm just trying to get something useful out of it.

Swing lower. Dont worry about shoulder this or scapular that.

Your body looks like its trying to get out if its own way because you're trying to swing at your chin.



look at how low simon is in the body with his swing. relaxed, low, compact.
Youre up high, bunched up scrunched up and can't compact.


The body will get out of its own way if it has to to save itself from being hurt.
This is something you see from things like the high drive shoulder, your body is trying to make room.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Swing lower. Dont worry about shoulder this or scapular that.
Your body looks like its trying to get out if its own way because you're trying to swing at your chin.
look at how low simon is in the body with his swing. relaxed, low, compact.
Youre up high, bunched up scrunched up and can't compact.
The body will get out of its own way if it has to to save itself from being hurt.
This is something you see from things like the high drive shoulder, your body is trying to make room.

Ah got it, thank you. Will try this later this afternoon.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I also suspect if I had started doing it this way with that little walk you use at the beginning of the setup & slight shift back, I might have been less likely to mess up my knee.

Same, I gotta try this drill in the wild. From just doing it in my room, it makes it easy to feel the resistance against both legs but especially the drive leg. The resistance builds to the point my weight is slightly in front of the foot and I bounce back.

@Nick Carroll When watching you drive and just reading your body english to me it looks a bit stiff to me. Your upper body looks very upright, when it ideally would be a bit hunched over. You pull your shoulder up, and my guess is that you do this to protect it. A couple of workouts would probably benefit you, not even to build muscle, but to just learn to control movements a bit better without a disc in hand and trust your body to hold you. If my impression here is right the workouts should focus on control of your shoulder and your athletic stance.

Can you do this hop from foot to foot? Paige is leaning above her front foot and countering that weight with the back leg up in the air.


If this is difficult for you, lateral lunges could help you. Dont worry if it is difficult to control the swinging of your leg and your short fall at first, I know it was difficult for me in rehab for my knee. In the sideview your also see that the instructor has to lean her upper body above her front foot so she can push it back to get upright again. Both the initial swing of the leg and pushing back up like she does are important for the exercise.


I also like this row exercise, you dont need to do it with a lot of weight, but you gotta do it the way Nick describes. When I do it my shoulder feels pretty loose and I can just let it hang before pulling on the barbell.


A dingle arm drill is always a good exercise and is probably good to bring this together, when you see the view from behind you can see the upper body is slightly leaning over with weight on the front/drive foot and when the arm swings throught you can see that the follow through is on a tilted axis. While swinging through the shoulder is also protracted and just swinging freely.


You probably heard most of this already, maybe there are some new suggestions in here for you. I also hope its not coming across as judgy

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I still maintain that the Beto drill is simultaneously the best and worst drill ever conceived lol.

It seems like it skips the hardest part of the throw and focuses on the easiest part but without having the speed that makes that part easy / automatic, which is a bit odd.

Hardest part = getting from reach back into a good pocket
Easiest part = after you're already in a good pocket, the energy transfer makes the arm automatically do what the beto drill has you do manually

Of course, this is an over simplification, the 'easiest part' still has hard things about it that can mess up your wobble and nose angle, but even those things are largely affected by upstream rhythms already set in motion to some degree (reaching the pocket with some pronation and IR so that you aren't pronating and IR on the way out).

 

[itlnstln]

It seems like it skips the hardest part of the throw and focuses on the easiest part but without having the speed that makes that part easy / automatic, which is a bit odd.

Hardest part = getting from reach back into a good pocket
Easiest part = after you're already in a good pocket, the energy transfer makes the arm automatically do what the beto drill has you do manually

Of course, this is an over simplification, the 'easiest part' still has hard things about it that can mess up your wobble and nose angle, but even those things are largely affected by upstream rhythms already set in motion to some degree (reaching the pocket with some pronation and IR so that you aren't pronating and IR on the way out).

Agreed. It's a good isolation drill, but it's not super helpful in tying the whole thing together. In the original video, Beto does have steps to work back to a full run up, but there isn't anything to specifically help with getting to the power pocket. I think Josh's "Twirly Bird" is pretty good for this. Once you get the pocket and the right pec, then there's the tension stuff that's a little harder to nail down. I think Josh's "ball-in-a-sock" drill is pretty good; it's kind of a "Towel Drill 2.0"

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Retraction causes horizontal abduction, not the other way around.
If your shoulder muscles are engaged it will prevent collapse or stabilize it. Retraction prevents better IMO.

One of the easiest things to do in the throw is to go from a reachback (even with a 90 deg or wider shoulder angle at RB) and to try to retract/pull, and then end up with horizontal collapse.

If the elbow is down you can retract hard with the arms touching your sides (adduction), so it seems weird to say it 'causes' abduction. It's only if the elbow / arm is up and you feel the need for the arm clear passed the body that there's a temptation to abduct it seems. And clearly, many people do not feel this need in their swing and end up doing the opposite when trying to pull.

If retraction caused abduction, I probably would've had a beautifully deep pocket the first moment I got my elbow / arm up and internally rotated, lol. Coming from climbing hard, it would've been an absolute joy to be able to focus on retracting more and have it cause abduction.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Swing lower. Dont worry about shoulder this or scapular that.

Your body looks like its trying to get out if its own way because you're trying to swing at your chin.

View attachment 356318

look at how low simon is in the body with his swing. relaxed, low, compact.
Youre up high, bunched up scrunched up and can't compact.


The body will get out of its own way if it has to to save itself from being hurt.
This is something you see from things like the high drive shoulder, your body is trying to make room.

One issue I have with a lower arm slot is that it helps you get more hyzer without hyzer posture, some people get lazy with hyzer posture if they swing with a lower pull through.

Here's Blitz throwing a lot of hyzer while standing pretty upright for that much hyzer:


I asked him if it was intentional, he said no, it was just that on the course he just thinks about executing the shape he wants and reverts into bad form habits, he called this a form mistake--lowering the pullthrough too much to get extra hyzer instead of hunching over more into more athletic hyzer posture. He also said it destroys his spin stats when he does this, which I've also found to be true.

Simon's spin is really good though (timestamped tech disc throws):


Some people, when thinking about pulling through lower, will be more tempted to lean over into a hyzer posture, so it just depends on people's reaction to it, but this is a risk, imo--it's too easy to get hyzer with a lower arm position.

However, if you pull through higher, I have also found it's also easy to accidentally stand up too straight because the higher arm slot feels more like I'm preparing to throw flat or anny, and so with a higher pull through, I've had to focus more on my hyzer posture to get my desired amount of hyzer, which I found to be useful, because it's forcing me to not be lazy with my hyzer posture.

Here's another good view of Simon compared with AB:

 

[HyzerRoc]

One issue I have with a lower arm slot is that it helps you get more hyzer without hyzer posture, some people get lazy with hyzer posture if they swing with a lower pull through.

That technique is like a cheat code for me. With a lower reachback you also get that hyzer that comes out way to the right and when it is steep enough the run-up line pretty much becomes the target line as the disc will fly back to the line in the hyzer. Makes it super easy to line up shots around mandos or aim for islands with drivers.

examples of what I mean with it coming out way to the right. Although when looking at it im not sure Simon lowers his reachback for the hyzer.

 

[Nick Carroll]

The main thing I notice is, the closer these 2 get the disc to - or through - the power pocket, the closer their arms tend to line up. So Simon's elbow is farther down than AB's in the first pics on the left, but as the discs travel through their swings, the discs are brought into a better position.

We've talked in the past about external rotation (among other things). I think the point is, as long as the arm gets to the right position by the right time in the swing, the disc gets released smoothly. That's why they drive slow putters 400' or more with practically no wobble.


I'll gladly settle for any arm orientation at the beginning, so long as I can correct it in time. I think Neil is pointing out that you could retract or horizontally abduct badly due to some other factors. The key is finding out what those factors are and accounting for them.

edit: Simon's arm is internally rotating more, as his correction in the first part of the swing. AB seems to maintain the same level of rotation throughout. So training the specific correction as a cue seems to be the way to go.

 

[sidewinder22]

One of the easiest things to do in the throw is to go from a reachback (even with a 90 deg or wider shoulder angle at RB) and to try to retract/pull, and then end up with horizontal collapse.

If the elbow is down you can retract hard with the arms touching your sides (adduction), so it seems weird to say it 'causes' abduction. It's only if the elbow / arm is up and you feel the need for the arm clear passed the body that there's a temptation to abduct it seems. And clearly, many people do not feel this need in their swing and end up doing the opposite when trying to pull.

If retraction caused abduction, I probably would've had a beautifully deep pocket the first moment I got my elbow / arm up and internally rotated, lol. Coming from climbing hard, it would've been an absolute joy to be able to focus on retracting more and have it cause abduction.

This makes no sense. How does your elbow move/collapse toward your sternum if you retract your shoulder? It's moving the opposite direction away from sternum toward your back.

 

[Kennets]

Is there any real value to know when exactly in the throw, the shoulder retracts?

All I know is: if I put emphasis on starting slouched/protracted (loose) and chill with my reach back and throw, I throw 100 feets further.

I think there's some real value in starting the throw from a slouched position/protracted/hyzer tilt (a combination off it all) and then let the body do its thing from there..

 

[sidewinder22]

One issue I have with a lower arm slot is that it helps you get more hyzer without hyzer posture, some people get lazy with hyzer posture if they swing with a lower pull through.

Here's Blitz throwing a lot of hyzer while standing pretty upright for that much hyzer:
View attachment 356322

I asked him if it was intentional, he said no, it was just that on the course he just thinks about executing the shape he wants and reverts into bad form habits, he called this a form mistake--lowering the pullthrough too much to get extra hyzer instead of hunching over more into more athletic hyzer posture. He also said it destroys his spin stats when he does this, which I've also found to be true.

Simon's spin is really good though (timestamped tech disc throws):


Some people, when thinking about pulling through lower, will be more tempted to lean over into a hyzer posture, so it just depends on people's reaction to it, but this is a risk, imo--it's too easy to get hyzer with a lower arm position.

However, if you pull through higher, I have also found it's also easy to accidentally stand up too straight because the higher arm slot feels more like I'm preparing to throw flat or anny, and so with a higher pull through, I've had to focus more on my hyzer posture to get my desired amount of hyzer, which I found to be useful, because it's forcing me to not be lazy with my hyzer posture.

Here's another good view of Simon compared with AB:

View attachment 356324

I don't think Blitz is standing that upright. Why do you have issue with something that helps? Some people can't bend over that far, some can't IR the shoulder that much. Dave Feldberg was player of the decade with the lowest arm slot and shallowest power pocket possible. He risked all that spin you are worried about losing.

Grip and balance and posture and type of shot affects your arm motion. Stop trying to be the perfect Iron Byron. Find what works for you.

 

[RowingBoats]

It seems like it skips the hardest part of the throw and focuses on the easiest part but without having the speed that makes that part easy / automatic, which is a bit odd.

Hardest part = getting from reach back into a good pocket
Easiest part = after you're already in a good pocket, the energy transfer makes the arm automatically do what the beto drill has you do manually

Of course, this is an over simplification, the 'easiest part' still has hard things about it that can mess up your wobble and nose angle, but even those things are largely affected by upstream rhythms already set in motion to some degree (reaching the pocket with some pronation and IR so that you aren't pronating and IR on the way out).

Its hard for us to really go back in time mentally to understand what the challenges truly are imo, but I do see what you are saying.

However, I kind of disagree. I think a true hit is something MOST people who cannot throw far are nearly completely missing. People make a power pocket 'shape' like a yoga pose almost but don't really grasp the level of acceleration that needs to happen there.

I suppose instead of saying its the best drill, I would say...that if you can do the Beto drill well, you probably can also throw pretty dang far. Whether it is great at 'teaching' someone to get there, I'd say that would be a rare thing lol.

So best/worst kinda is how I see it. I don't really think his 'start from the hit' is an all in one self-contained technique to learn the whole swing. But if you return to the concept of the right-pec drill as you learn and get it to feel powerful, its an awesome tool. But the video seems like it is trying to give a sequence of steps and I don't think it clicks for most people.

Who knows lol. Thinking about any aspect of the swing after you understand it, it becomes hare to empathize with your past ignorant self to really know what helped.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This makes no sense. How does your elbow move/collapse toward your sternum if you retract your shoulder? It's moving the opposite direction away from sternum toward your back.

I didn't say towards sternum, I said elbows at your side. You can easily fully retract with your elbows by your side which is more of an adducted position than an abducted position.

When the elbow is up, shoulder internally rotated so the forearm is across the chest, then when you retract, you can still do it without horizontal abduction and it doesn't feel like I'm resisting any urge to abduct. However, I could see how retracting in that position may make you feel like your forearm is going to slam into your chest and then there could be an urge to start abducting to start moving out and around the chest--but AMs seem to rarely have this happen intuitively and instead just crumple into horizontal and vertical collapse instead.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

that if you can do the Beto drill well, you probably can also throw pretty dang far.

If you took an AM who can't get from reachback to pocket without a bunch of collapse issues, and they work on the beto drill a bunch and are able to do it well, then they go try to throw hard again, don't you think they will still be likely to screw up the phase of reachback-to-pocket and end up in a bad pocket still? AKA they can do the beto drill well but cannot throw far because they mess up before the beto drill even comes into play.

It would probably help them with approach shots a lot though.

However, I kind of disagree. I think a true hit is something MOST people who cannot throw far are nearly completely missing. People make a power pocket 'shape' like a yoga pose almost but don't really grasp the level of acceleration that needs to happen there.

Yeah but the acceleration is kinda already created / stored as potential before the coming out of the pocket phase, isn't it? It may feel like it's created there but isn't it more that it's built up as potential energy and then the arm flings open instead of the acceleration being created from 'pushing the disc out with the arm' (arming it to an extent but way too late to actually arm it).

This is why Beto is doing quite a bit of coiling / rotating in this drill, because it would be way harder to generate power by more fully isolating to pushing the arm out.

He's basically fully coiling. You could literally rebrand this drill as a coiling drill where you tell them to "just put your arm here and don't worry about it, just let it fling open as you learn to create power from coiling and uncoiling"


Another way to make my point is that if you could take an AM, and magically put them into a good power pocket position / brace position with all that built up potential energy from the preceding steps of the throw, their arm would fling open with a lot of acceleration before they could even think or try to 'push it out' for the most part.

To be fair, when throwing max power I do feel my arm is trying to help to some degree to push it out, but I think the reality is less that it's contributing much and more that the thought to do that can help to get more setup in the preceding position to build up potential energy. I've tried before from reach back only thinking about curling my wrist once I start to uncoil and nothing else with my arm, and I still get similar high speeds when doing that as long as my arm gets into a good pocket from muscle memory, the out of the pocket phase just happens as the energy is transferred through.

 

[itlnstln]

Its hard for us to really go back in time mentally to understand what the challenges truly are imo, but I do see what you are saying.

However, I kind of disagree. I think a true hit is something MOST people who cannot throw far are nearly completely missing. People make a power pocket 'shape' like a yoga pose almost but don't really grasp the level of acceleration that needs to happen there.

I suppose instead of saying its the best drill, I would say...that if you can do the Beto drill well, you probably can also throw pretty dang far. Whether it is great at 'teaching' someone to get there, I'd say that would be a rare thing lol.

So best/worst kinda is how I see it. I don't really think his 'start from the hit' is an all in one self-contained technique to learn the whole swing. But if you return to the concept of the right-pec drill as you learn and get it to feel powerful, its an awesome tool. But the video seems like it is trying to give a sequence of steps and I don't think it clicks for most people.

Who knows lol. Thinking about any aspect of the swing after you understand it, it becomes hare to empathize with your past ignorant self to really know what helped.

Finding a full hit was the goal of the drill. In the OG video, there's an emphasis on locking in that feeling (he mentions throwing something like 50 shots) before adding a step, adding a walk-up, then adding a reach back. The thinking was that if you can lock in the feeling of a full hit, then as you add more to the throw, you have a reference point to know that added the next thing correctly. So if you found the feeling in the standstill, adding a step should feel the same at the hit, and so on. This will work for some population of people, but there's obviously a lot glossed over. There's no mention of a brace or shifting appropriately even in the standstill; hell, it doesn't even address posture - it's purely arm-focused. That's totally fine, but if your form has issues with weight shift and brace, the right pec drill will be limited. I would imagine some folks that think the right pec doesn't work probably have some of these other non-arm problems

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Finding a full hit was the goal of the drill. In the OG video, there's an emphasis on locking in that feeling (he mentions throwing something like 50 shots) before adding a step, adding a walk-up, then adding a reach back. The thinking was that if you can lock in the feeling of a full hit, then as you add more to the throw, you have a reference point to know that added the next thing correctly. So if you found the feeling in the standstill, adding a step should feel the same at the hit, and so on. This will work for some population of people, but there's obviously a lot glossed over. There's no mention of a brace or shifting appropriately even in the standstill; hell, it doesn't even address posture - it's purely arm-focused. That's totally fine, but if your form has issues with weight shift and brace, the right pec drill will be limited. I would imagine some folks that think the right pec doesn't work probably have some of these other non-arm problems

Ah, yeah this drill was way before my time so I was never exposed to the full philosophy and step by step build up.

 

[itlnstln]

For reference and posterity:



(EDIT: I guess he does, very briefly, mention a plant)

(EDIT 2: Well, hell, I completely forgot about the weight shift section. TBF, it works, but it's missing some stuff. It's more about controlling nose angle and mostly ignores how it integrates into the throwing motion)

 

[419HondaGuy]

His newer Beto 2.0 video I believe does a better job than OG one on demoing it.