Tech disc test driven development

[itlnstln]

Kinda surprised how well both videos hold up. Some of the cause/effect and reasoning might be a bit off or misunderstood, but what it's demoing is still really good. I haven't seen these videos in a long time, and the first one in years

IIRC, the first one was pre-YouTube and done with RealPlayer and hosted on DGR

 

[jaypay85]

I don't think Blitz is standing that upright. Why do you have issue with something that helps? Some people can't bend over that far, some can't IR the shoulder that much. Dave Feldberg was player of the decade with the lowest arm slot and shallowest power pocket possible. He risked all that spin you are worried about losing.

Grip and balance and posture and type of shot affects your arm motion. Stop trying to be the perfect Iron Byron. Find what works for you.

With that being said, I believe it was Feldberg who said it was about "style". Me personally would never use his style as I think it looks terrible to me personally.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't think Blitz is standing that upright. Why do you have issue with something that helps? Some people can't bend over that far, some can't IR the shoulder that much. Dave Feldberg was player of the decade with the lowest arm slot and shallowest power pocket possible. He risked all that spin you are worried about losing.

Grip and balance and posture and type of shot affects your arm motion. Stop trying to be the perfect Iron Byron. Find what works for you.

I said "pretty upright for that much hyzer", the "for that much hyzer" part is important. It's A LOT of hyzer.

I also believe spin is very overrated by the community at large. People believe it contributes a lot to distance when it doesn't seem to contribute much at all to distance directly, so long as you are above a pretty easily attainable threshold.

Considering that most of the top pros have high spin, I think it is often a byproduct of good form in general, and so I use it as loose indicator that part of my form may have suffered when I'm trying to get higher speeds for example.

"Find what works for you", yeah, of course you have to do what works for you to a degree, but many people use "this is what works for me" as an excuse (to an extent) because it's an easier path to quick success than doing the longer and harder work of playing worse initially for quite a while as you work on things that don't come as easily and intuitively to you.

After lots of hard work, you may find something that works for you even better that you'd never have found if you accepted too completely "this works for me" and then focused on trying to optimize that from there on out.

It's incredibly easy to be wrong about "this doesn't work for me" until lot's of reps and practice result in it finally clicking, then it suddenly works for you. This is why I usually try to occasionally return to things that "didn't work for me", especially when I see it's something that works for many people.

I think, more often than not, when you see someone who is good with unconventional form, it is just something that set in early on and they chased the early success until they got really good and are then stuck with it and ad hoc rationalize it as "this works for me". In a fewer number of cases the person actually did find something unconventional that works best for them (excluding serious abnormal anatomy stuff).

I saw plenty of people who got really good with 1HBH racketball swings using an unconventional pancake grip (the same paddle face is then used for BH and FH) and most of the time when asked how they developed that swing they usually say something like "that's how I first picked up the racket".

 

[Nick Carroll]

Ah got it, thank you. Will try this later this afternoon.

Went to a par 2 after work and managed to record a couple test throws before sunset, so the image blurs a bit in this very first throw, but the second one lacks enough detail. The shadow swings looked better earlier today in front of a mirror.

But there's less shoulder shrug and elbow drop, so there's something I can work with by practicing this weekend. The shadow swings feel different, which I'm going to chalk up to a good thing. So thank you @Sheep !

 

[Sheep]

It seems like it skips the hardest part of the throw and focuses on the easiest part but without having the speed that makes that part easy / automatic, which is a bit odd.

Hardest part = getting from reach back into a good pocket
Easiest part = after you're already in a good pocket, the energy transfer makes the arm automatically do what the beto drill has you do manually

Of course, this is an over simplification, the 'easiest part' still has hard things about it that can mess up your wobble and nose angle, but even those things are largely affected by upstream rhythms already set in motion to some degree (reaching the pocket with some pronation and IR so that you aren't pronating and IR on the way out).

As I stated in my video, the beto drill is really good for helping you get "out" from the pocket, vs jerking the disc around.

A lot of people are so focused on pulling and dragging the disc through on a line, they never get the disc out and they just round and shank.
Heck, I do it all the time, cause .. well I suck. hahaha.
Throw good when I get it out though.

The thing is, the drill is so dang awkward to do. Just feels wrong, so wrong. but you get good at it, you can throw 300 feet fairly easy.

Which really, if you think about it, shows you how important that muscle group and timing engagement is.

 

[Sheep]

I said "pretty upright for that much hyzer", the "for that much hyzer" part is important. It's A LOT of hyzer.

I also believe spin is very overrated by the community at large. People believe it contributes a lot to distance when it doesn't seem to contribute much at all to distance directly, so long as you are above a pretty easily attainable threshold.

Considering that most of the top pros have high spin, I think it is often a byproduct of good form in general, and so I use it as loose indicator that part of my form may have suffered when I'm trying to get higher speeds for example.

"Find what works for you", yeah, of course you have to do what works for you to a degree, but many people use "this is what works for me" as an excuse (to an extent) because it's an easier path to quick success than doing the longer and harder work of playing worse initially for quite a while as you work on things that don't come as easily and intuitively to you.

After lots of hard work, you may find something that works for you even better that you'd never have found if you accepted too completely "this works for me" and then focused on trying to optimize that from there on out.

It's incredibly easy to be wrong about "this doesn't work for me" until lot's of reps and practice result in it finally clicking, then it suddenly works for you. This is why I usually try to occasionally return to things that "didn't work for me", especially when I see it's something that works for many people.

I think, more often than not, when you see someone who is good with unconventional form, it is just something that set in early on and they chased the early success until they got really good and are then stuck with it and ad hoc rationalize it as "this works for me". In a fewer number of cases the person actually did find something unconventional that works best for them (excluding serious abnormal anatomy stuff).

I saw plenty of people who got really good with 1HBH racketball swings using an unconventional pancake grip (the same paddle face is then used for BH and FH) and most of the time when asked how they developed that swing they usually say something like "that's how I first picked up the racket".

You can't have your cake and eat it to for this stuff.
Because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.

And because you don't think it matters doesn't actually mean that it does or doesn't.

Like the posture stuff. Posture and mobility are so different for every thrower. You can fix a lot of players swings in lessons by just fixing their throwing posture and nothing else allowing their bodies to move more freely. It doesn't matter if its high or low on the chest or what you think, its always about doing whats right to get that persons body to be in harmony and not try and get out of its own way. It's gotta flow and sing.
You might be able to force your young body into compliance, and you don't have ... say 10 years of bad habbits to push through to improve. While its easy for you to sit at home and throw into the net all day, not everyone has that luxury or does their body have the ability to pound out 1000 reps or whatever to solidify that technique.

Also, Spin has SOOOO much to do with the throw, the problem is most people out there really have no clue what spin actually does with the disc, cause they still don't understand basic flight physics of a wing shape, let alone adding in gyroscopic stability and precession.

The key to being good at shot shapes is controlling spin and knowing when to give it more, normal, or less.

Distance competitions and throws, pro's are not thinking about spin, they are thinking about maximum advantage/leverage/speed. It really is "grip and rip."
They have practiced with discs to see which one doesn't fail their method of throwing distance.

I'm a really linear thinker overall, but when it comes to things like this, you gotta be flexible and understanding across a vast multitude of factors for everyone.
The lesson I give to one person might not be the lesson I give to another.

Such as the disc speed lesson I gave to a pilot the other day.
I could explain it to him in a way he would fully understand without a huge explination.

While a normal student would be lost at that, because they dont have relatable experience.

 

[Sheep]

Kinda surprised how well both videos hold up. Some of the cause/effect and reasoning might be a bit off or misunderstood, but what it's demoing is still really good. I haven't seen these videos in a long time, and the first one in years

IIRC, the first one was pre-YouTube and done with RealPlayer and hosted on DGR

Thats why I made a video on it. I love the drill and teach it and practice it myself, but the way Dan explains it is just so clunky and open ended.
I think I helped, but I don't think I made a be all end all explanation of it.

With that being said, I believe it was Feldberg who said it was about "style". Me personally would never use his style as I think it looks terrible to me personally.

Feldberg has an old school swing.
But he knows his shit too. He's an interesting fella.

I think that people forget the purpose of the door jam drill and a few other things that we do. It's not about style, its about finding our posture and movement spaces. Maximizing mobility and allowing for the greatest outcomes by working with our body and joints.

Went to a par 2 after work and managed to record a couple test throws before sunset, so the image blurs a bit in this very first throw, but the second one lacks enough detail. The shadow swings looked better earlier today in front of a mirror.

But there's less shoulder shrug and elbow drop, so there's something I can work with by practicing this weekend. The shadow swings feel different, which I'm going to chalk up to a good thing. So thank you @Sheep !

View attachment 356331

That's great!
The hardest thing to remember with this, because I'm doing this same thing you are here, trying to move it down, is remembering to relax and not try and kill it. Soon as I do, that disc comes up and i throw it like turd.

If I stay relaxed and low, I'm able to throw so easy.
If you're into really deep pocket stuff and have good mobility, this is the method that allows the deepest pocket too. Right chest, hahaha. how about past right hip pocket.
(it doesn't help anything, dont do it. haha, its just funny)

Leaning forward a bit more and allowing the disc to be low gives you SO much space, and allows your arm to genreally move a bit better.

Some people have the shoulder mobility to throw a bit higher, but the nose angle is usually what suffers for people. The lower throw forces you to throw nose down as well without any effort, your body has to throw nose down, you cant roll your wrist into pronation.

 

[RowingBoats]

If you took an AM who can't get from reachback to pocket without a bunch of collapse issues, and they work on the beto drill a bunch and are able to do it well, then they go try to throw hard again, don't you think they will still be likely to screw up the phase of reachback-to-pocket and end up in a bad pocket still? AKA they can do the beto drill well but cannot throw far because they mess up before the beto drill even comes into play.

It would probably help them with approach shots a lot though.


Yeah but the acceleration is kinda already created / stored as potential before the coming out of the pocket phase, isn't it? It may feel like it's created there but isn't it more that it's built up as potential energy and then the arm flings open instead of the acceleration being created from 'pushing the disc out with the arm' (arming it to an extent but way too late to actually arm it).

This is why Beto is doing quite a bit of coiling / rotating in this drill, because it would be way harder to generate power by more fully isolating to pushing the arm out.

He's basically fully coiling. You could literally rebrand this drill as a coiling drill where you tell them to "just put your arm here and don't worry about it, just let it fling open as you learn to create power from coiling and uncoiling"
View attachment 356329

Another way to make my point is that if you could take an AM, and magically put them into a good power pocket position / brace position with all that built up potential energy from the preceding steps of the throw, their arm would fling open with a lot of acceleration before they could even think or try to 'push it out' for the most part.

To be fair, when throwing max power I do feel my arm is trying to help to some degree to push it out, but I think the reality is less that it's contributing much and more that the thought to do that can help to get more setup in the preceding position to build up potential energy. I've tried before from reach back only thinking about curling my wrist once I start to uncoil and nothing else with my arm, and I still get similar high speeds when doing that as long as my arm gets into a good pocket from muscle memory, the out of the pocket phase just happens as the energy is transferred through.

Ya I think you are saying similar things to what I am thinking lol. I think the Beto drill with an in person instructor might be extremely helpful.

When its just someone who doesn't quite get it watching a video though...I think the coiling aspect gets almost completely overlooked very commonly.

 

[RowingBoats]

Finding a full hit was the goal of the drill. In the OG video, there's an emphasis on locking in that feeling (he mentions throwing something like 50 shots) before adding a step, adding a walk-up, then adding a reach back. The thinking was that if you can lock in the feeling of a full hit, then as you add more to the throw, you have a reference point to know that added the next thing correctly. So if you found the feeling in the standstill, adding a step should feel the same at the hit, and so on. This will work for some population of people, but there's obviously a lot glossed over. There's no mention of a brace or shifting appropriately even in the standstill; hell, it doesn't even address posture - it's purely arm-focused. That's totally fine, but if your form has issues with weight shift and brace, the right pec drill will be limited. I would imagine some folks that think the right pec doesn't work probably have some of these other non-arm problems

Yep, trust me I understand the goal of the drill myself, and really do think its a great concept.

But, to REALLY get what I see as valuable from it, you can't just 'arm' it.

I think we are all saying the same thing basically lol.

 

[StupendousMan]

It's incredibly easy to be wrong about "this doesn't work for me" until lot's of reps and practice result in it finally clicking, then it suddenly works for you. This is why I usually try to occasionally return to things that "didn't work for me", especially when I see it's something that works for many people.

I think, more often than not, when you see someone who is good with unconventional form, it is just something that set in early on and they chased the early success until they got really good and are then stuck with it and ad hoc rationalize it as "this works for me". In a fewer number of cases the person actually did find something unconventional that works best for them (excluding serious abnormal anatomy stuff).

I just italicized one part to differentiate which part I meant in each comment lol.

I think this italicized portion highlights the importance of having a competent coach. I think of it like a quadrant matrix (though I'm sure you could arrange this type of thing in a near infinite number of ways). -- Vertical axis is feel, horizontal axis is effectiveness. So we get a "feels good, was good", "feels good, was shit", "feels shit, was good", "and feels shit, was shit". That highlights the trap here. Most* changes are going to feel wrong when we first do them, because it's different. But, we can just as easily put in a lot of reps until that change feels good and clicks and it be a positive, as much as we can grind in a change until it feels good but it actually made things much worse.

The non italicized part I'm struggling with, but maybe it's me not understanding exactly what you mean. I mean in disc golf the first example I think of is Conrad country runups lol. But even then, how much of that is truly "unconventional". I guess, it depends on that definition. Like what is actually unconventional and what is the standard for really good with it?
In any sport, we can narrow down "form" to a few very key ideas, and then individuals will be able to co-ordinate themselves and arrange themselves in a way they can execute those ideas successfully. Trying to be overly perfect gets us into the universal cockpit issue. Like lets say for example, we narrowed down those key ideas in disc golf to a brace and timing. Then lets run with that and say that we identified the most important things to achieve that are basic posture and weight shift. Again just run with me here doesn't matter if what I chose is actually correct. Then we teach to those concepts, and the other pieces will largely fall in place. Troubleshoot any major issues that arise of course, but for the most part if we get the core concepts right, athletes will sort themselves into positions that work most effectively. When it comes to changing technique in anything, the two key questions I think are 1) is the current technique dangerous. If it is, we have to change, and 2) Will the change actually impact performance positively. Sometimes the answer to #2 is not so clear and we can try to make something look "correct" but it doesn't accomplish anything. If we've actually found the key ideas, I don't know that it's possible to get 'really good' by being unconventional with them. Other little things may appear unconventional, but that may not be a bad thing.

I dunno, that last part came out kinda rambly lol. But my simple question is "what is unconventional". Or rather, what do you mean by unconventional.

 

[itlnstln]

I just italicized one part to differentiate which part I meant in each comment lol.

I think this italicized portion highlights the importance of having a competent coach. I think of it like a quadrant matrix (though I'm sure you could arrange this type of thing in a near infinite number of ways). -- Vertical axis is feel, horizontal axis is effectiveness. So we get a "feels good, was good", "feels good, was shit", "feels shit, was good", "and feels shit, was shit". That highlights the trap here. Most* changes are going to feel wrong when we first do them, because it's different. But, we can just as easily put in a lot of reps until that change feels good and clicks and it be a positive, as much as we can grind in a change until it feels good but it actually made things much worse.

The non italicized part I'm struggling with, but maybe it's me not understanding exactly what you mean. I mean in disc golf the first example I think of is Conrad country runups lol. But even then, how much of that is truly "unconventional". I guess, it depends on that definition. Like what is actually unconventional and what is the standard for really good with it?
In any sport, we can narrow down "form" to a few very key ideas, and then individuals will be able to co-ordinate themselves and arrange themselves in a way they can execute those ideas successfully. Trying to be overly perfect gets us into the universal cockpit issue. Like lets say for example, we narrowed down those key ideas in disc golf to a brace and timing. Then lets run with that and say that we identified the most important things to achieve that are basic posture and weight shift. Again just run with me here doesn't matter if what I chose is actually correct. Then we teach to those concepts, and the other pieces will largely fall in place. Troubleshoot any major issues that arise of course, but for the most part if we get the core concepts right, athletes will sort themselves into positions that work most effectively. When it comes to changing technique in anything, the two key questions I think are 1) is the current technique dangerous. If it is, we have to change, and 2) Will the change actually impact performance positively. Sometimes the answer to #2 is not so clear and we can try to make something look "correct" but it doesn't accomplish anything. If we've actually found the key ideas, I don't know that it's possible to get 'really good' by being unconventional with them. Other little things may appear unconventional, but that may not be a bad thing.

I dunno, that last part came out kinda rambly lol. But my simple question is "what is unconventional". Or rather, what do you mean by unconventional.

For me, sometimes it's more about thinking I got the drill, moving on, then coming back later and realizing I didn't get it, get it the first time

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just italicized one part to differentiate which part I meant in each comment lol.

I think this italicized portion highlights the importance of having a competent coach. I think of it like a quadrant matrix (though I'm sure you could arrange this type of thing in a near infinite number of ways). -- Vertical axis is feel, horizontal axis is effectiveness. So we get a "feels good, was good", "feels good, was shit", "feels shit, was good", "and feels shit, was shit". That highlights the trap here. Most* changes are going to feel wrong when we first do them, because it's different. But, we can just as easily put in a lot of reps until that change feels good and clicks and it be a positive, as much as we can grind in a change until it feels good but it actually made things much worse.

The non italicized part I'm struggling with, but maybe it's me not understanding exactly what you mean. I mean in disc golf the first example I think of is Conrad country runups lol. But even then, how much of that is truly "unconventional". I guess, it depends on that definition. Like what is actually unconventional and what is the standard for really good with it?
In any sport, we can narrow down "form" to a few very key ideas, and then individuals will be able to co-ordinate themselves and arrange themselves in a way they can execute those ideas successfully. Trying to be overly perfect gets us into the universal cockpit issue. Like lets say for example, we narrowed down those key ideas in disc golf to a brace and timing. Then lets run with that and say that we identified the most important things to achieve that are basic posture and weight shift. Again just run with me here doesn't matter if what I chose is actually correct. Then we teach to those concepts, and the other pieces will largely fall in place. Troubleshoot any major issues that arise of course, but for the most part if we get the core concepts right, athletes will sort themselves into positions that work most effectively. When it comes to changing technique in anything, the two key questions I think are 1) is the current technique dangerous. If it is, we have to change, and 2) Will the change actually impact performance positively. Sometimes the answer to #2 is not so clear and we can try to make something look "correct" but it doesn't accomplish anything. If we've actually found the key ideas, I don't know that it's possible to get 'really good' by being unconventional with them. Other little things may appear unconventional, but that may not be a bad thing.

I dunno, that last part came out kinda rambly lol. But my simple question is "what is unconventional". Or rather, what do you mean by unconventional.

The quadrant is cool, reminds me of a useful shorthand some people use in pickleball (probably came from tennis or something) to communicate with their teammates while practicing or on the last shot of a round, it's a bit different but has some similarities.

+ = good
- = bad

++ = good shot selection, good shot execution, keep doing it
+- = good shot selection, bad shot execution, try it again if you think you can execute it better
-- = bad shot selection, bad shot execution, don't do it again
-+ = bad shot selection, good execution, it worked, but probably don't want to do it again because opponents will likely catch on and punish us for it


When I said unconventional there I was mostly thinking about the cases of unconventional form where you can find fairly clear form problems. There are of course people with unconventional form that, upon closer inspection, surprisingly seems mechanically pretty sound and so it's mostly unconventional aesthetically / stylistically.

So the issue I was highlighting is mostly that there are plenty of people, who are making form mistakes, but are athletic and skilled enough to still get good results despite those mistakes, and so they say "this works for me". And it does, in so far as they get good results. And it's even rational to not fix those mistakes and try to get as good as you can WITH those mistakes present if you depend on those results to make a living and don't have the luxury to perform worse for potentially a while to try to fix them. But in those cases, they hobbling their max potential.

 

[StupendousMan]

Ok that helped clarify, thanks Neil. The people who you are referring to that upon closer inspection are mostly just 'less pretty' and that's largely where my brain went with it.

But yes to your other point as well, with any mistake, it's always important to weigh the opportunity cost of actually trying to make the change. Depending on the person's circumstances, the optimal strategy can be to continue understanding it may be a limitation.

I do think the group of people where these unconventional mistakes because of some underlying physiological issue is a lot larger than may be first expected. Especially in athletes who have been training hard at anything for a long time.

 

[itlnstln]

Went to a par 2 after work and managed to record a couple test throws before sunset, so the image blurs a bit in this very first throw, but the second one lacks enough detail. The shadow swings looked better earlier today in front of a mirror.

But there's less shoulder shrug and elbow drop, so there's something I can work with by practicing this weekend. The shadow swings feel different, which I'm going to chalk up to a good thing. So thank you @Sheep !

View attachment 356331

I've been doing PT for some bursitis issues in my throwing arm* and have had some epiphanies about things like scapular protraction, etc. One thing that I started noticing is that not all scapular protraction is the same. You can hunch your shoulders forward but do it in a way that can get your traps involved or at least enables them to get involved.

Looking at these pics, it appears that your shoulder blade is "riding up," enabling you to shrug your shoulders. As part of my PT, I've been working on some exercises like "setting" the scapula and lower lat lifts (I can't find a good video for this, but it doesn't video well anyway). I got to thinking on how this works in a DG backhand and came up with a couple of ways to try to work on getting the scapula protracted and down while emphasizing the feel in the throw:

Option 1:
Face a mirror and get in the right pec/power pocket position. Your shoulders should be protracted and traps relaxed. From this position, push your elbow towards the mirror while keeping your traps relaxed. If your traps activate, and you shrug, stop and go back to the starting position. If you do this correctly, you should feel like the elbow push is coming from your back (scapula) and sort of underneath your arm. Note, that your elbow may only move forward about 2-3", it's kinda subtle. You may also notice your shoulder moving down slightly and the joint nearly maxed out in the upper RoM (your shoulder joint should almost feel reaching as high as you can, but your arm is in the power pocket)

Option 2:
(This one might need a pic). Face a mirror with your arms down by your side. Now, bend your arm at the elbow 90 deg. so your hand is touching your sternum like your standing for the national anthem or you're Napolean with his hand in his coat:

Basically, you're in the power pocket position with your elbow down. Now, lift your elbow up to the power pocket WITHOUT shrugging. Like Option 1, you should feel the scapula slide down and a bit of a "push" coming from around the lat. Also, like Option 1, your shoulder's vertical RoM will be near it's max


When you get to this position in this way, it's a little harder to shrug, and your upper arm is in a position where it makes a bit harder to round as well. Combine this with @Sheep's tip pulling a little lower, and you might have something that moves you in the right direction


(* I broke my ankle earlier this year, and during rehab, I got a little... ambitious on forehand, so it was back to PT. What was good about this is that I found out that the backside of my shoulder was very weak. The exercises and things I've learned have been super applicable on the course)

 

[Nick Carroll]

I've been doing PT for some bursitis issues in my throwing arm* and have had some epiphanies about things like scapular protraction, etc. One thing that I started noticing is that not all scapular protraction is the same. You can hunch your shoulders forward but do it in a way that can get your traps involved or at least enables them to get involved.

Looking at these pics, it appears that your shoulder blade is "riding up," enabling you to shrug your shoulders. As part of my PT, I've been working on some exercises like "setting" the scapula and lower lat lifts (I can't find a good video for this, but it doesn't video well anyway). I got to thinking on how this works in a DG backhand and came up with a couple of ways to try to work on getting the scapula protracted and down while emphasizing the feel in the throw:

Good to know, thank you. I watched the video and I'll work on those 2 options a bit today. I've been dealing with bursitis caused by my backhand form for a year now, and that's why I've been reluctant to just put a lot of reps in, unless they're quality reps. So I have to do it right in the first place in order to keep doing it. What I have to do is get a good form that's slow, and then start increasing speed as a means of progression.

 

[sidewinder22]

Beto doesn't setup with much or any protraction. He really only protracts and retracts in transition. The point is to get the elbow forward closer to the target, not out perpendicular to the target.

Protraction is literally reachback.

 

[itlnstln]

Beto doesn't setup with much or any protraction. He really only protracts and retracts in transition. The point is to get the elbow forward closer to the target, not out perpendicular to the target.

Protraction is literally reachback.
View attachment 356343

True, the point of the exercise above is to get a feel for keeping the shoulder down and mitigating shrugging. "Setting" the scapula gives you a stronger feel if the shoulder's protracted. Once you get the feel of sliding the scapula down, you can play around with your shoulder position

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Protraction is literally reachback.

Earlier you said there are multiple ways to throw when showing examples of people more or less protracted in the pocket and I brought up that it just seems to show multiple ways to throw.

Now it sounds like you are saying it's one way.

 

[sidewinder22]

Earlier you said there are multiple ways to throw when showing examples of people more or less protracted in the pocket and I brought up that it just seems to show multiple ways to throw.

Now it sounds like you are saying it's one way.

That really is the only way to reachback.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This video may help clear some things up, 4 different positions related to amounts of protraction / retraction. Starting from position 1 where the disc is touching my chest



Of course there are lots of variables, scapular protraction / retraction ROM, arm lengths, amount of elbow flexion, chest size, etc. But, despite all that, I still think it's more likely for a majority of people who are trying to use a conventional power pocket (near chest high) won't have space for the disc in the pocket without focusing more on protraction than retraction. Of course briefcasing gives more space as well though and so less protraction would be needed for space if briefcased during the pocket.