Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Like another butt-on view? Or rear of tee?@Brychanus do you know a vid with a good view of Simon throwing hard from the back with minimal camera movement during the runup?
Like another butt-on view? Or rear of tee?@Brychanus do you know a vid with a good view of Simon throwing hard from the back with minimal camera movement during the runup?
Rear of tee.Like another butt-on view? Or rear of tee?
Or a button-viewLike another butt-on view? Or rear of tee?
Yeah I follow generally and nice to hear you've got some gas going for you!Rear of tee.
I want to chart his brace step path as he brings it over his x step foot before swinging it lot wide.
i've noticed while working on rear hip coil that it makes me want to brace more north Westward instead of totally linear momentum into a northward brace.
I tested bracing out wider before, but it was before I was thinking about it more as a natural consequence of rear hip coil plus rear leg drive guiding the weight shift out wider.
After feeling that interaction, it felt like it made sense to weight shift more Eastwood on my x step to have more time to balance while rear hip coiling.
So I focused today I focused on trying to put those things together, thinking of a linear run up line, but having my weight shift curve a little east of the line during x step then curve a bit more westward into brace.
Almost hit 70, 69 twice and a few easy 66-68 mph. Not sure if it was camera angle or not, but the disc looked it had a more dramatic redirect out of my pocket as well.
I exaggerated the eastward weight shift into the X step a little too much probably and so then my brace looked like it was linear, but offset normally, but there definitely was more Westward weight shift into the brace because of the preceding more than usual eastward weight shift.
I feel like this is kinda like what Simon is doing, does that track for you?
Do you have a name for this weight shift / balance pattern. Trying to think of what to call it.
Throw vid uploaded in this reply: Tech disc test driven development
Yeah I follow generally and nice to hear you've got some gas going for you!
I'll try to find a good rear of tee full crush.
Maybe this is a good time to throw this at you. Sidewinder called the same/similar concept you're after the "zig zag x step", which in a way I tend to see at least a majority of pros use to a greater or lesser extent. However, there is a bit of a theoretical debate about this still out there.
The zig zag x step involves the N-S and W-E strides, but it is not only that. The concept is the difference between just focusing on the strides themselves and kind of trying to force the body to be literally centered in space between the feet (which actually means your body mass is slightly trapped) versus the balance and theoretical center of mass shifting from foot to foot tilting each way. This was controversial around here at one point. I am aware people still disagree about it. I have tried both.
This will either confuse or help: if you want a version that encodes the CoM concept, I am working on learning something close to GG's [1 2]. Simon's and specifically his transition move the step before the x step ("prep step") onward is probably one of the most sophisticated out there but you might be able to pull a version of it off with your body type. I think there's a reason a fair number of top throwers try to copy Simon to good effect. A version of GG's probably works better for me because of how I am shaped, but then again Paige Pierce uses a version of GG's pattern so I don't think it's just for husky people. GGs is just using maybe more mass/countermass dynamics to generate power than maybe anyone else I've stared at long enough so far.
SW had been trying to get me to do it for more than a year but the "trick" was that I needed the step before the xstep to "toss" my whole mass more east, then the whole thing kind of just works together if the balanced axis and posture are decent. But it took me a few months walking away from it before something new clicked for whatever reason when I watched GG throwing more flat (which his motion is unmistakably not when throwing at or near that plane). Before, I was mostly just looking at the strides and feet. I wasn't seeing or feeling the "mass toss" part of the zig zag/CoM movement. This is 100% clear in my head and body but lmk if I am failing in words lmao.
Anyway, in your throw there I can do a markup when I get to my main comp, but what you will see is that the "hang time" you spend over the rear leg transition is a little long because you've still got opportunities to improve your tilted axis of balance a bit. That's related to the "swivel stairs" action sidewinder shows in that drill or the hallway sideways run, Simon's is just better than perhaps anyone else's from a certain theoretical perspective. I suspect you will also have the chance to get a little more internal (good) torque there as part of the coil and a couple more mph if you can get it.
I will mention that other concepts de-emphasize the role of internal torque in the context of a relatively short plant stride and role of moving CoM and force redirection in favor of maximal plant stride and abrupt stop of mass favoring horizontal abduction. The latter can also work in terms of generating power. The distinction in some ways summarizes the difference in two major schools of thought about the entire move. I personally learn from examples more like Simon, Eagle, and GG for theoretical and practical reasons and moved back to them after exploring a bit on my own. Just wanted to acknowledge certain debates there that often happen too privately or too abruptly in my humble opinion.
Cool, thanks.
Zig zag is too rigid / sharp angle-sounding to me. I'm calling it "curvy runup weight shift" I guess, lmao..
When I started crow hopping I lost some of the wider brace look, but, it still felt wider even when it looked like a more linear brace path because I still had my weight shifted more east over my X step which changed how wide the brace felt and how the weight shift into it felt.
Also, I didn't try this, but, having the lead foot more open like Simon does as he is going into the x step seems to automatically direct your weight a little bit more east over your x step as you press off the lead knee into the x step.
There are timestamps if you want to skip to the throws.
Too rigid? lol C'mon man, you in here talking about diagonals yourself.
If you focus on the force/pressure it's zig zag or diagonals as forces are straight. The resulting motion/torque is circular or figure 8.
I agree with your video and you need to do more of what I'm talking about with the inward kick.
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Lol, I just mean in this case I was trying to find name that describes it in more of a flowy curvy way that I'm trying to feel rather than hard angles. Still wanting a better name than curvy or zigzag but naming is one of the hard things..Too rigid? lol C'mon man, you in here talking about diagonals yourself.
Yeah, I thing a lot of the problems with naming here and elsewhere tends to be directly related to (1) differences in the core concept for how the motion works and (2) various "home grown" approaches to teaching the move, and often both.Lol, I just mean in this case I was trying to find name that describes it in more of a flowy curvy way that I'm trying to feel rather than hard angles. Still wanting a better name than curvy or zigzag but naming is one of the hard things..
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how powerful the words can be. I haven't spent enough time trying to name things well because I'll never get to post anything if I try to find good names, lmao.Yeah, I thing a lot of the problems with naming here and elsewhere tends to be directly related to (1) differences in the core concept for how the motion works and (2) various "home grown" approaches to teaching the move, and often both.
Zig zag works if you focus on CoM-centric model and force vectors in that context (i.e., use it as your causal framework).
The emergent appearance becomes sort of "curvy" in that case when mediated through a real human body in all its weirdness.
Note: editing a couple words in my post above now for clarity.
In terms of coaching or mentalization I agree. I have no special interest in the labels per se - just wanted to affirm that the literal force vectors mediated through the body play out to cause the more curvalicious natural motion. I'm glad I just got to write "curvalicious" lmaoYeah, it's pretty amazing how powerful the words can be. I haven't spent enough time trying to name things well because I'll never get to post anything if I try to find good names, lmao.
But zigzag in my mental imagery would be like a starting exaggeration to feel the motion and then you would smoothen it out to gentler curves since a zigzag image is usually abrupt changes in directions / sharp angles.
Sway is literally the same concept in the Waltz, which I did before disc golf. Athletic mode and posture is a little different but a lot of the principles crossover in terms of balance and CoG movement, postural frame of reference, etc. Here, the disc is like a much less massive dance partner."Swaying" might have been a good word to use..
Yep. Won't need to do that at all once you learn the Swivel Stairs/Buttwipe/Open-to-Closed Crush the can part of the shift. It'll just happen automatically.I think part of the reason you saw my prep step knee go over my toes was because I was anticipating that I was going to push off of it to get more eastward weight shift onto my X step so I got some counter prep movement.
Yes, I did play/am playing with this and am glad we are still talking about it. I'm drinking wine avoiding editing a thesis so bear with me lol:Did you try feeling the effect on weight shift into the X step that a more open prep step has? It seems like it more naturally redirects your weight shift off the lead foot and back more onto the X step, plus keeps you more open to look at the target. Also it make make it easier to not turn the x step backwards too much since you are more open still.
I wouldn't use that term to describe this motion because in most sports swaying is considered a bad thing and I've also used it that way in critiques. Then we have more conflicting terminology which we probably already have enough of like "crow hop" for example is the opposite of the x-step/shuffle step."Swaying" might have been a good word to use..
To be clear I completely agree with this in terms of sway - it's essential in waltz and there is a similar balance concept, but I later better appreciated that dance posture and athletic posture are two different modes of moving overall. Having gradually gotten better at athletic posture here I would say that the dancing concepts can help with some aspects of the balance, but not all of it for sports, so I tend to not quite call it a "sway" often anymore either.I wouldn't use that term to describe this motion because in most sports swaying is considered a bad thing and I've also used it that way in critiques. Then we have more conflicting terminology which we probably already have enough of like "crow hop" for example is the opposite of the x-step/shuffle step.
I have no issue with curvy, but would tend to use to zig zag, diagonals, rocking, circles, sine wave, wavy, oscillation, figure 8, locomotion.
Interesting.In terms of coaching or mentalization I agree. I have no special interest in the labels per se - just wanted to affirm that the literal force vectors mediated through the body play out to cause the more curvalicious natura motion. I'm glad I just got to write "curvalicious" lmao
Sway is literally the same concept in the Waltz, which I did before disc golf. Athletic mode and posture is a little different but a lot of the principles crossover in terms of balance and CoG movement, postural frame of reference, etc. Here, the disc is like a much less massive dance partner.
Yep. Won't need to do that at all once you learn the Swivel Stairs/Buttwipe/Open-to-Closed Crush the can part of the shift. It'll just happen automatically.
Yes, I did play/am playing with this and am glad we are still talking about it. I'm drinking wine avoiding editing a thesis so bear with me lol:
In my little motion experiments I'm increasingly convinced that this question is related to the idea of coming off the heel (Paul Oman, Taylor Chocek, Simon either intentionally or mistakenly doing it here):
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I'm still trying to decide what to conclude in entirety, but let me see if I can explain how that relates to a more apparently rearward facing foot that still comes off the instep instead of the heel.
Basically, I'm finding that coming off the heel it's very hard or perhaps impossible to "spin shift" (which is bad - that is forced internal rotation in the rear leg to try and induce the shift forward - instead, the internal rotation is supposed to happen as part of the backswing in pro movement within the continuous "Figure 8" action). I think this is because a shift off the heel completely removes that option due to removing the rear foot instep as an option for leverage, meaning it's almost impossible to internally rotate it by force while moving targetward (there is nothing to leverage against to do it). As a result, it's much easier to "shift from behind" leading with the full mass of the body creating the elastic tension against the disc approaching the peak of the backswing (which is good!).
My current guess is that this move off the heel can be quite powerful if the rest is working well enough (e.g., Oman, Chocek both throw very far, though always look at those levers + overall ultra-elite athleticism in the latter case), but I do wonder what would happen if those players instead optimized a Figure 8 coming off the rear foot instep even if the whole move opens up to have a nearly rear-facing step, but still leveraging off the instep like either Simon or GG or Eagle usually do. This would be the rebuttal from CoM/zig zag/intersports theory about what a rear facing foot actually means, or should mean.
In any case, Drill suggestion (for anyone) and please compare notes:
Compare and do Simon's prior heel move (copied here again)
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to how Simon's X-step usually functions even when he does little preshot routines - this is just the small version of his full move, but his full arm swing below is a deceptively good idea - you should be able to do it momentously like this without the disc coming out ("slash through" the release point):
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Try something like the hammer and/or disc swing, intentional heel x-step, then intentional instep x-step and mess around with where you coil the backswing. Do it with the disc more vertical to feel its weight and air resistance against it, then slash like Simon. Feel how it interacts with how your x-stepping leg loads and unloads and how it affects your balance. See when the move and balance off the heel feels a heck of a lot like that, but coming off the instep.
I'm focusing you on the space of interactions because yours will probably settle somewhere quite specific to your own body and motion pattern.
What's "best"?
E.g., I was too curious/stubborn/dumb for a while to realize that I should just let mine coil back more like GG which also sort of stabilized my rear leg on its own to the extent that was possible. I suspect that if you just "hard swapped" Simon's backswing style with GG's in the side by shot here, neither move would immediately work because their lower body would have to counter the change in the upper body (which possibly both of them could do with practice and they had different developmental histories - that's mostly just a thought experiment for you there). Also pay attention to their follow through on otherwise very similar shots and think about why they appear to differ. Notice that neither of them even has a hint of a risk of the knee shearing forward I noticed earlier - it's because they are using the buttwipe-like posture and action to stay more loaded on the posterior chain the whole time not unlike a pitcher or batter.
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So how much is anatomy, posture theory, the Figure 8 pattern, and otherwise stretched out or modified for max distance? I mentioned Tamm earlier. Why did I envy Simon's move even slightly more than this really damn awesome form in an absolute trebuchet of a man? Does his foot ever really point all the way backwards? Do Simon or Drew's? Or is it just a function of the same Figure 8 idea stretched out to its absolute limits in RoM relative to the trajectory? Does this matter?
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This one changed what I see forever. How does this little slip help us learn so much from a diminutive crusher? Notice where her reachback goes:
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That last shot is trending at least a little (and possibly much) better w.r.t. the above. IMO I'd say stick with it a bit and let's see where it ends up. Once I find that rear view on Simon mash I'm looking for I will try to convince you the "hop pivot" is basically what he is doing, just stretched out more horizontal as a stride.Interesting.
That page pierce gif reminds of this AB moment I saw in a practice round with the boys, it was at one of the Arizona courses with on the hole where they throw a big hyzer along a road to fade back to the basket near an electrical box I think. AB's rear foot slipped at a similar time but he was committed to throwing hard it seemed like and it looked like he did throw hard, but he didn't let go of the disc somehow. One of the guys he was playing with just flat out said "how did you do that?" lol.
The simon shadow swing with the red hat, I feel like he's just being super casual / lazy and that's why he is weighted on his rear heel more than usual.
I tried keeping the prep step a bit more open and it seemed to help weight shifting eastward onto the X step feel a bit more natural and I think it also made my brace path swing north east a bit more as well before coming back out north west, but I was already thinking about wanting to do more of that so, it might've also just been that.
Here's one throw where the brace path looked like it swung more than the tech disc session. I also did a special hop pivot move on the walkaway for you
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I pured some pretty tough gaps too, so it doesn't seem to affect my aim too much. But it is a little weird planning where my brace is gonna be / accounting for that in the runup line, but not bad. I'm really liking it.
That last shot is trending at least a little (and possibly much) better w.r.t. the above. IMO I'd say stick with it a bit and let's see where it ends up. Once I find that rear view on Simon mash I'm looking for I will try to convince you the "hop pivot" is basically what he is doing, just stretched out more horizontal as a stride.
Yes, watching slips in general can be highly instructive about where the forces are coming from and going. This is one of my faves:
So my motion for concensus: what PP, GG, Simon shifting off instep, Simon shifting off the heel, Chocek, and Oman all have in common is a version of what we can call & sidewinder teaches as "shifting from behind." Heel shift just tends to lose the instep leverage and full internal torque you can get on the rear side (which is also possibly why e.g. Chocek's rear arm tends to lag behind her a bit into the shift vs. the "ride the bull" move SW teaches).
Check that message again, I edited it.Why do I get these error messages with vid attachments?
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Same issue still. It's like 50/50 going to work or not on vid attachments for me. Different file types I suppose, but IDK.Check that message again, I edited it.
I sometimes drag n drop out of habit and then it embeds it directly inline with a play button, it worked for me and I could play it in the site, but I removed it and used "attach file" instead.
Weirdly, in DM's recently I noticed I can't send vid attachments anymore, it just seems to not be supported, so they might've also changed something.