Trying to get my backhand form to 400ft and beyond

[Brychanus]

I think I have a hard time realizing this because I cannot shift behind into the plant yet. So I'm not leveraging against the ground. So if I don't put effort into it, my throw goes nowhere. Also feels really weird not to try hard. Like just lackadaisical swinging my arms around with my body just doesn't seem like an athletic movement. However I was mediocre at any sport I played so what do I know. Only having decent hand-eye coordination saved me, I guess.

It still confuses the hell out of me to hear you guys refer to it as walking. Like I just cannot wrap my head around that. I have just walked sideways just to see if I feel a connection between the disc golf throw and walking, but I notice nothing. I have slightly begun to see what y'all are talking about with the falling aspect, but then I can't relate that to walking. I know Dan Martin says that everyone leans forward (falling) when walking but I just can't see it. I'm guessing it'll make sense when I randomly manage to do it right once.

IMO this is a highly athletic move. My muscles are recruited, they respond and move with force, but the thing you need to realize is that almost everything you thought power feels like might be exactly wrong or backwards.

E.g., now when I through I only notice muscular effort when I start hitting like 80%. But it's more like elastic stretching and contractile strength and bounciness. The walk should feel like a trot or gallop or springs in the legs. The Dan Martin idea is true, but it's very subtle and hard to see in walking, and is often hard to see or feel until you do it moving sideways. The elephant walk is an athletic, controlled walk.

The athleticism you seek is like a baseball swing or pitch. When SW talks about swinging smooth and relaxed, it's still highly athletic. The trick is using your postures and body posture to work with gravity and momentum as much as possible for maximum power and minimum effort. I was by no means "athletically" moving when I started. But it is learnable even if the battle is hard.

Learning to shift from behind and commit to the "fall" is important.

 

[Dundee]

IMO this is a highly athletic move. My muscles are recruited, they respond and move with force, but the thing you need to realize is that almost everything you thought power feels like might be exactly wrong or backwards.

E.g., now when I through I only notice muscular effort when I start hitting like 80%. But it's more like elastic stretching and contractile strength and bounciness. The walk should feel like a trot or gallop or springs in the legs. The Dan Martin idea is true, but it's very subtle and hard to see in walking, and is often hard to see or feel until you do it moving sideways. The elephant walk is an athletic, controlled walk.

The athleticism you seek is like a baseball swing or pitch. When SW talks about swinging smooth and relaxed, it's still highly athletic. The trick is using your postures and body posture to work with gravity and momentum as much as possible for maximum power and minimum effort. I was by no means "athletically" moving when I started. But it is learnable even if the battle is hard.

Learning to shift from behind and commit to the "fall" is important.

Oh, I'm definitely not saying it isn't athletic. I'm saying that my idea of athletic is wrong, and that's not surprising because I never understood mechanics in other sports. Never really had a coach. I'm a lefty and played baseball through junior high. So naturally coaches wanted me to pitch, but I just couldn't throw hard. I just thought I wasn't strong enough (was super scrawny then). That tells you how little I know. I definitely do not think I know anything related to being athletic body movements and mechanics.

My timing is so off when I do the elephant walk that I feel nothing. I don't know what it is. I filmed myself doing the drill last year. I can try it again. I'm going to do some super exaggerated falling and film it. I've done it before, just never uploaded. I spend a stupid amount of time doing this stuff.

 

[Brychanus]

I hear ya. I have had many ups and downs learning this stuff. IMO keep following SW's lead there. It goes good places if you remain patient.

When he's orienting you to posture and slashes, try actually slashing and hitting things. Your body needs kinetic feedback to feel the "hit" that is the disc golf release point.

 

[Dundee]

I hear ya. I have had many ups and downs learning this stuff. IMO keep following SW's lead there. It goes good places if you remain patient.

When he's orienting you to posture and slashes, try actually slashing and hitting things. Your body needs kinetic feedback to feel the "hit" that is the disc golf release point.

I'll find something to hit for feedback. Found this other Dan Martin video

https://youtu.be/ppaDvkJZ_hg

Around the 3 minute mark he starts going over what I understand to be essentially the kinetic chain and some movements to practice the feeling. The first one is at 3 minutes. This small movement he's talking about first, is that the falling/sitting movement? I feel a lot of this in my core.

 

[Brychanus]

^looks promising. Legs there are getting a little of that buttwipe/sit/fall action we're talking about. Don't overmuscle/"clench" through the core. Strong but relaxed.

 

[Dundee]

^looks promising. Legs there are getting a little of that buttwipe/sit/fall action we're talking about. Don't overmuscle/"clench" through the core. Strong but relaxed.

https://youtu.be/-82Jt51DpZ4

I tried to mimic the Dan Martin movements. First part of the video is just doing the falling motion. Does that look right? Feels really awkward trying to rotate my chest after making the lateral movement to the target

 

[Dundee]

I found a video where Dan Martin talks about sitting. I'm not sure why, but for some reason I thought I was supposed to be sitting towards the target when it's really just in the opposite direction of the swing like he mentions. Really liked this video

https://youtu.be/vsV2TEKgv4s

 

[sidewinder22]

You have no side bend/tilted spiral.

 

[Dundee]

You have no side bend/tilted spiral.

Realizing I think about the swing in "either or" extreme aspects. I thought I wasn't supposed to be leaning over in any one direction. But it looks like I'm supposed to be some amount. I guess it'd be too easy if it was so black and white.

Am I tilted over too far in this video? I wish he would have talked more about how he is bracing against the inside of his left side. I feel absolutely no power or momentum in what I'm doing so I assume this wrong.

https://youtu.be/CyCev4jMkqA

Just need to vent. This has to be the most frustrating thing I have ever tried to do in my life. I have never put so much time into something and had so little to show for it. So much information out here and I can't follow any of it. You would think something would eventually stick from watching videos daily and trying different movements for 1.5 years to learn the feel of the swing. Never have I ever felt so useless. Vent over.

 

[Dundee]

Have you watched any of these videos?

https://youtu.be/STPpm6xtL0M

https://youtu.be/e82g4YuXv1Y

https://youtu.be/xakV1lbDe5Y

https://youtu.be/0IxllCJRKS4

In these videos they talk about the hips jumping targetward in response to being late to the down swing.

We have hardly talked about timing. Does this just happen if I do the other parts right? Because I didn't realize I should be going shifting back, re-centering, and shifting forward all during the backswing.

 

[Brychanus]

^ was reflecting about this recently & wanted to share:

Does this just happen if I do the other parts right?

Maybe. Rhythm/timing, tempo, mechanics, and balance are all related.

I think there are a lot of schools of thought on timing. Well, maybe two extremes with people using mixes of things. Some people emphasize a focus on specific moments in time and sequences on the one hand. Others emphasize rhythm, which often encodes a more continuous flow of motion in time. I've seen SW use tools from both approaches from time to time (ha) depending on the problem.

FWIW, I've found it very helpful to anchor a lot of training to the peak of the backswing and peak of the swing, and develop motions focusing on rhythm between the two. SW and Clement and others use a lot of great tricks for that. It has simplified a lot of problems and given me more control over the tempo of my movement and throws. When I need to focus on specific moments in time, I can slow down and focus on them. Once my movement settles down from new learning, I get smoother and smoother over time. My motions have been pretty smooth and easier on my body for a while now even when a few mechanical pieces get janky. This is one of the very valuable things in learning from golf instruction in general. After all the rhythm practice I've done, I always feel the peak of my backswing and peak of my swing in time now, and I always feel how they relate to the crush even when my swings aren't great. I don't have to think about it anymore. I can immediatelly feel when something is a little funky in the sequence because the sequence feels like one big move from backswing to swing. It's like being out of rhythm in dance - it helps you get back in phase quickly. I can't overstate the value of that. It helps anchor everything else.

I didn't realize I should be going shifting back, re-centering, and shifting forward all during the backswing.

Yeah, that gave me a lot of trouble for a long time too. SW had me exaggerate each piece of that at one point or another (using lots of mechanics, timing, and rhythm tricks), and it was all valuable. One of the problems people have in the X is often that they haven't figured out how to do this. It's kinda weird if you're not used to it.

 

[Dundee]

^ was reflecting about this recently & wanted to share:



Maybe. Rhythm/timing, tempo, mechanics, and balance are all related.

I think there are a lot of schools of thought on timing. Well, maybe two extremes with people using mixes of things. Some people emphasize a focus on specific moments in time and sequences on the one hand. Others emphasize rhythm, which often encodes a more continuous flow of motion in time. I've seen SW use tools from both approaches from time to time (ha) depending on the problem.

FWIW, I've found it very helpful to anchor a lot of training to the peak of the backswing and peak of the swing, and develop motions focusing on rhythm between the two. SW and Clement and others use a lot of great tricks for that. It has simplified a lot of problems and given me more control over the tempo of my movement and throws. When I need to focus on specific moments in time, I can slow down and focus on them. Once my movement settles down from new learning, I get smoother and smoother over time. My motions have been pretty smooth and easier on my body for a while now even when a few mechanical pieces get janky. This is one of the very valuable things in learning from golf instruction in general. After all the rhythm practice I've done, I always feel the peak of my backswing and peak of my swing in time now, and I always feel how they relate to the crush even when my swings aren't great. I don't have to think about it anymore. I can immediatelly feel when something is a little funky in the sequence because the sequence feels like one big move from backswing to swing. It's like being out of rhythm in dance - it helps you get back in phase quickly. I can't overstate the value of that. It helps anchor everything else.



Yeah, that gave me a lot of trouble for a long time too. SW had me exaggerate each piece of that at one point or another (using lots of mechanics, timing, and rhythm tricks), and it was all valuable. One of the problems people have in the X is often that they haven't figured out how to do this. It's kinda weird if you're not used to it.

I think it's impossible to do any of this right without knowing some of the timing aspects. I'm sure this has been told to me before in these posts. But that information just bounces off me like a brick wall.

You can't swing correctly if you aren't already shifting your weight forward while in the back swing. Which is what I've been doing. I've been seeing it as two separate things. I needed to shift backwards while reaching back and then shift forward. Which doesn't work. Instead, I should have my weight shifted back pretty early in the backswing, re-center while reaching back, and right before I've got to max reachback, I should be shifting forward/squatting. Correct?

On top of that timing, I still need to figure out how to brace against the inside of brace leg. Shawn Clement talks about it as if it's so simple. I can't even get into that position before starting the swing.

Do you have a link to your form post? I'd just like to read yours and SW22's posts

 

[Brychanus]

Yes, it is important to do things with the correct timing and rhythm. I'll give you an example of how your mechanics are blocking some of the "timing," which is also blocking other mechanics.

You are shifting your weight forward in the backswing, but you are never "seated" into either leg. You just kinda pivot or fall off of the rear leg I think. You've got to march your weight back and forth on top of each of your legs, not just pivot between them. That's also part of the answer to your instep question.

I've watched this video hundreds of times from the side of tee view to see how this throw relates to a golf swing. Watch it over and over and over again and compare it to how you move. I advise this not just because I like how SW throws - it's because it's basically a decoder for how to get golf and baseball lessons to become a disc golf backhand. No, it's not the only way to learn. Yes, it's good and it worked for me.



Look at how far ahead of him his ass gets as he is shifting forward while still backswinging. That's the Buttwipe. You aren't Buttwiping because you aren't "sitting" with the correct hinge in your lower body. Do not think "squat". Think "sit". How would you sit back into a chair? That's how you want to settle in. Hinge back into the posture more like you would sitting down. See post 364 here and my post after.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3884710&postcount=364

Here's my form thread. It's a mix of some of the best remote coaching conceivable from SW and the confused ravings of an obsessive madman. It has been a great time. There are 997 posts there so far, so strap in ;-)

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140441

 

[sidewinder22]

Have you watched any of these videos?

https://youtu.be/STPpm6xtL0M

https://youtu.be/e82g4YuXv1Y

https://youtu.be/xakV1lbDe5Y

https://youtu.be/0IxllCJRKS4

In these videos they talk about the hips jumping targetward in response to being late to the down swing.

We have hardly talked about timing. Does this just happen if I do the other parts right? Because I didn't realize I should be going shifting back, re-centering, and shifting forward all during the backswing.

Yes, I've posted those before in some other threads.

I don't like to use the word timing, timing is individualistic and happens within the sequence.

Bad sequence = bad timing.

Bad posture = bad sequence.

Some posts early in your thread about this subject...

2 Pros on the right have been dealing with spine injuries. Spine extended, and rear arm/shoulder chicken winged - dragging behind.

Where is your hit point with the hammer swings? Your elbow never really leads and extends way early. Can't tell if the hammer is sideways, too much blur. You can practice in slow motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=7m44s

With the pendulum backswing, you also have the disc almost upside down in the backswing, so your hand is on top the disc, and overswing the backswing. Keep your hand more underneath the disc in pendulum style backswing.

In your SS you do this little wiggle/shake of the disc, drives me nuts, you would never do that with a hammer. Your backswing is way too flat/horizontal. Your weightshift is also late/out of sequence. You should be moving targetward while swinging back to the top of backswing. You are still all the way shifted back at the top and so you are trying shift forward while swinging forward instead of countering the momentum.

Swing drills should have the front foot slightly turned open to target. Only when you are actually throwing or doing crush the can should you turn it further back.

Note how the top of backswing your arm has slack and your center of mass is close to hammer.
Note how the top of backswing my center of mass has driven forward to catapult the lagging shoulder/arm/disc/hammer.
Note how you extend the elbow instead of bending it to swing forward while lagging the release of the hammer head.

The Hit - where the wrist extends and hammer head/nose of disc passes your hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

 

[Dundee]

Yes, it is important to do things with the correct timing and rhythm. I'll give you an example of how your mechanics are blocking some of the "timing," which is also blocking other mechanics.

You are shifting your weight forward in the backswing, but you are never "seated" into either leg. You just kinda pivot or fall off of the rear leg I think. You've got to march your weight back and forth on top of each of your legs, not just pivot between them. That's also part of the answer to your instep question.

I've watched this video hundreds of times from the side of tee view to see how this throw relates to a golf swing. Watch it over and over and over again and compare it to how you move. I advise this not just because I like how SW throws - it's because it's basically a decoder for how to get golf and baseball lessons to become a disc golf backhand. No, it's not the only way to learn. Yes, it's good and it worked for me.



Look at how far ahead of him his ass gets as he is shifting forward while still backswinging. That's the Buttwipe. You aren't Buttwiping because you aren't "sitting" with the correct hinge in your lower body. Do not think "squat". Think "sit". How would you sit back into a chair? That's how you want to settle in. Hinge back into the posture more like you would sitting down. See post 364 here and my post after.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3884710&postcount=364

Here's my form thread. It's a mix of some of the best remote coaching conceivable from SW and the confused ravings of an obsessive madman. It has been a great time. There are 997 posts there so far, so strap in ;-)

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140441

"You are shifting your weight forward in the backswing, but you are never "seated" into either leg."

-Seriously considering taking video of myself sitting down. Maybe I don't sit down correctly. I've already taken video of myself walking, might as well see if I've made it my whole life sitting down incorrectly. I don't know what it is, but I just cannot visualize this sitting motion in any person's throw. I have literally sat down repeatedly in an office chair and then tried to find an opportunity in the swing to do this motion and it just doesn't ever click. At what point should you be sitting? What mark in the SW22 BH standstill video is he sitting?

"You just kinda pivot or fall off of the rear leg I think. You've got to march your weight back and forth on top of each of your legs, not just pivot between them. That's also part of the answer to your instep question."

-What does it mean to "pivot or fall off of the rear leg" and to "march your weight back and forth on top of each of your legs"? Does this mean that I'm not going towards the target enough with my weight?

In the SW22 BH standstill video, where is his weight at the 0:40 mark? Is his front leg entirely weightless?

"Look at how far ahead of him his ass gets as he is shifting forward while still backswinging. That's the Buttwipe. You aren't Buttwiping because you aren't "sitting" with the correct hinge in your lower body. Do not think "squat". Think "sit". How would you sit back into a chair?"

-So in the Buttwipe drill, is my entire butt supposed to be wiping the wall? Or just one butt cheek during backswing and then the other during the downswing?

I tried very hard to exaggerate sitting down in this video. I feel ridiculous. I know this is bad. But I don't know what else to do to try and feel this sensation. I know nobody looks like this when they throw. My balance feels so off. I'm so much lower to the ground than SW22 looks like in his standstill video. First time I've ever "angry" practiced something. Just feeling dumb again.

https://youtu.be/ZM_1XI4O8Ow

 

[Dundee]

Yes, I've posted those before in some other threads.

I don't like to use the word timing, timing is individualistic and happens within the sequence.

Bad sequence = bad timing.

Bad posture = bad sequence.

Some posts early in your thread about this subject...

I need to revisit the hammer swings again. I haven't tried that since last year.

I also wasn't implying that you have never mentioned the late weight shift. Just that I get so caught up in trying to learn the swing in different ways that I end up forgetting what I've heard before. Last year I was watching way too many other videos about the throw from other people that I have since given up on watching. It just got too confusing and there is too much wrong information out there.

I spent some time the beginning of this year working on posture. Pretty sure that's all gone out the window since then.

I replied to Brychanus with a link to this attempt at trying to exaggerate the sitting motion. Does my posture look right in this?

https://youtu.be/ZM_1XI4O8Ow

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Your stance is starting way too wide like 12-18". Start about shoulder width and stride 3-6" during backswing.

2. Your head is turning way too far back and is the first thing to turn back instead of the last. Your chin should be right over the lead shoulder at top of backswing.

3. Work on Inside Swing Drill backswing with rear foot staggered so rear toes are inline to front heel and your shoulder winds back right under your chin and inside the wall/posture. You are getting too over your toes/into the wall with your head/shoulders/knee.

 

[Brychanus]

I replied to Brychanus with a link to this attempt at trying to exaggerate the sitting motion. Does my posture look right in this?

https://youtu.be/ZM_1XI4O8Ow

Take SW's lead here. Once you start getting it you will be able to move much slower in balance off the rear side and much more controlled when you land and swing on the front side.

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry, one more thing.

I'm going to be even more careful about how I use the "sitting" cue in the future. Dundee, if you really sit in a chair like you show in 156, it's the most aggressive chair sit I can imagine. It's like you're trying to smash the chair effortfully with your buttcheek. That action isn't right even if you kinda force parts of the posture.

What we really want see you do is to hinge back relaxed like a ball golfer into the posture. When I sit down like that it's way more controlled and relaxed. You want to be able to "hang out" comfortably starting in that posture and it's part of the fundamental way to balance without screwing up your sequence (which as SW says "contains" the timing). I promise it can be learned even though it can be very frustrating.

Don't get off track with that, but I wanted to reframe it for you.

Just start with SW's points and let's see what you get.

 

[Dundee]

Sorry, one more thing.

I'm going to be even more careful about how I use the "sitting" cue in the future. Dundee, if you really sit in a chair like you show in 156, it's the most aggressive chair sit I can imagine. It's like you're trying to smash the chair effortfully with your buttcheek. That action isn't right even if you kinda force parts of the posture.

What we really want see you do is to hinge back relaxed like a ball golfer into the posture. When I sit down like that it's way more controlled and relaxed. You want to be able to "hang out" comfortably starting in that posture and it's part of the fundamental way to balance without screwing up your sequence (which as SW says "contains" the timing). I promise it can be learned even though it can be very frustrating.

Don't get off track with that, but I wanted to reframe it for you.

Just start with SW's points and let's see what you get.

You are right, I do not sit down like this. I purposely tried to exaggerate it. Because I have not been able to do it when I try to normally sit down. Before this video, I literally took video of myself sitting down. It doesn't click. I can't see how I'm suppose to make that movement. I tried to implement "sitting down" by exaggerating the motion since that's a common learning technique. Because I've felt like I've been trying to not overextend and sit into the throw for months now. Obviously I'm not doing it, so this was another option to try learning it.