~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[UhhNegative]

I think a combination of not tipping backwards in the backswing (leveraging forward a little better) and a slightly later backswing are going to help you as well. I guess implicit in the later back swing is the neutral foot/leg position striding forward.

The tipping I'm talking about:

Should help with balance through the swing as well.

 

[slowplastic]

I think a combination of not tipping backwards in the backswing (leveraging forward a little better) and a slightly later backswing are going to help you as well. I guess implicit in the later back swing is the neutral foot/leg position striding forward.

The tipping I'm talking about:

For sure. I'm just walking sideways with neutral alignment to practice it and it feels so much more natural. And simpler. Why do we all try to copy things we "think" pro's are doing instead of just doing what feels simple and in balance? Frustrating.

I think it'll be pretty massive too when I figure it out. So many times these changes result in way easier power or more velocity without feeling any different through release. It just works out.

 

[sidewinder22]

Why do we all try to copy things we "think" pro's are doing instead of just doing what feels simple and in balance? Frustrating.

I think it stems from trying to feel powerful and loading way back like immoveable horsestance which is very strong and stable position, but not athletic and quick.

 

[slowplastic]

If I'm balanced around my spine properly when throwing, should I feel like my right shoulder goes all the way 180 behind me and my left shoulder finishes at the target? Like very fast during the swing?

I had been feeling more like I have that chest to target finish and then the weight of my arm pulls my left side through.

I am feeling a different balance just comparing righty and lefty swings/drills, that causes my right shoulder to finish behind me and my arm to keep getting pulled all the way around...rather than residual momentum do that. I think this is what it feels like to actually be centered...the shoulder keeps pulling the whole way...

Basically what I had been doing was feel like I'm facing chest forward after release and then arm swing keeps pulling me around. This feels like the shoulders continue until they are 180 degrees around with left shoulder at the target, and the right shoulder away from it pulls the arm even faster behind me.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not following with how you are describing things. When I'm balance on my front leg, I feel my hand pull my shoulders into the finish. My arm is going much faster than my shoulders. My left shoulder is being pulled inline to the target. My left arm gets whipping around my chest in the finish like taking sip of a beverage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UqQZylULio&t=4m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLo97jXn5Wo&t=1m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5IlLh_MwB8&t=1m50s

 

[slowplastic]

My left shoulder is being pulled inline to the target. My left arm gets whipping around my chest in the finish like taking sip of a beverage.

Yeah I realize I'm talking about a feel difference thing...I'll have to video it or throw with it but I think it's the right track. It feels like my left shoulder finishes in line to the target very readily and the arm gets pulled through so fast, rather than just swinging in front of me more slowly as the momentum is dissipating from the throw.

 

[slowplastic]

I feel like I am at the start of a breakthrough on the BH leveage, so I would like some pointers to guide this as smoothly as I can as I'm making these changes.

Basically I practiced striding like a lefty sidearm throw as SW suggested, and once I felt that leverage a bit through my left forearm I did the battering ram feeling so my right arm would go with me too in the BH direction. This showed me that I was letting my right arm lag far too much in RHBH...it has to be with me from the start. It's a different feel than how much the rear arm lags in a FH shot, at least to me.

I know I'm still not perfect on the plant leg, on the rear view I am nose over instep or so, I need to be another 2-3" over my foot and that will help me I'm sure.

But the biggest feel difference is that I'm keeping my right arm out wide with me from the start and it feels like I can pull with my hips so much better. I was feeling the "ball on a string" as in the other edge of the disc was a ball attached through my arm to my spine, from the top of the backswing moving forward. My best throw was a 12' high Destroyer through like 10+MPH wind that went 400-410, I think it had like 430 on it if it had any height and could have flown more fully. This throw felt like the other edge of the disc was arcing away from me during the whole forward swing...there wasn't really an in and out, there wasn't a straight line or anything, it felt very circular and like I just slung THROUGH the other edge as the disc was ejecting. It really carried fast.

This clip was just a typical throw, not one of the exceptional ones. I know I'm still drifting left into my own way. I should likely have more athletic torso tilt and turn back to land lower body first. I had been having better off arm action but I couldn't think about that as much today. I really want to know about that disc weight feel though...it felt very circular to me how the opposite edge was continually arcing far away or around me, not in a line toward the target and then arcing away at the hit.

https://vimeo.com/360914901

So is that ball on a string "around" feeling good? I know SW shows the olympic hammer throwers and it was like that feel, not the wide-narrow-wide thing but I'm guessing that narrow part just happens from forearm lag and you don't even need to feel it?

I also hit a personal goal, I threw an Ion 350'. Wind was swirling 10-15MPH in every direction imaginable so I'm sure that in that instant I got a bit of wind assist, but it was by far the farthest flat ground putter I've ever thrown.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd like to see the rear view for the swing width although I think the address is so much easier to critique rather than the throw.

On the address you need to open your front foot. You are still sending or tipping your upper body over from the rear foot and rear foot is spinning out wildly. You need to push your rear instep into the ground to drive the heel forward underneath you(should feel your tilt going away from target deeper) and move your weight forward in balance from the ground up. Your pressure on the rear foot should roll to the inside/instep and the instep should drag behind the heel as your weightshift(CoG) pulls it off the ground.

Door Frame Drill 2 lower your body going forward into the arm/shoulder to load it. In your x-step you are still turning back too early and start going forward early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo&t=5m56s

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent. I could see in the pre-swing that I was a little bit set up reverse pivot, and I could definitely see that rear foot spin out. I just focused on these things while swinging a lever, but with the ability to feel the end's weight during the entire forward swing from what I learned during today's throws. This is good. I think I'm going to break through this and that 350' putter isn't a fluke.

One quick question first...when setting up in the pre-swing why should my front foot be neutral-open? It feels better I agree. But is it just that if I maintain this feel but let myself turn progressively more closed as I am planting, I'll end up appearing more closed or 90 degree planted?

In feel, it's like from the top of the backswing forward the opposite edge of the disc has centripetal force that I'm pulling on. It's not like a rounded throw where the rim/grip is always pulling on your fingertips and you'll get an early slip, but this is like that exact opposite edge is swinging away from me the whole time in a heavy way and really loading back my arm. This is also feeling similar to the forearm lag I get in my FH shots. I'd never felt this in BH ever, it felt like top of the backswing to the launch position was a guided or waiting stage, then I'd hopefully do the outward swing with some leverage. That's why my hand/disc always did wonky stuff, because I had no control over it and I just assumed it was because that's the direction the elbow bends. This feels heavy and continuous, and with that rear foot push off the instep properly everything feels very heavy and connected. Again, it feels like the lag stage of my FH shot before I swing out through the hit with some elasticity but continual hip leverage. I'm sure my FH is a higher level than my BH form-wise, so getting my BH to feel natural and similar has to be good. Not that I wouldn't like to add 30' to my FH in the future if that could be done safely.

 

[sidewinder22]

One quick question first...when setting up in the pre-swing why should my front foot be neutral-open? It feels better I agree. But is it just that if I maintain this feel but let myself turn progressively more closed as I am planting, I'll end up appearing more closed or 90 degree planted?

Turning the front foot open/neutral at address has something to do with unrestricting the body/swing to the aim/release point and balance. My foot usually pivots back to this point right after or during release.

Correct, think Open to Closed drill, you start wide open and everything turns together back closed in the backswing. You should really only be turned back past 90 on a left to right distance line, so it's really 90 to the line and just appears turned further back.

One leg drill is a little different at address because you can't reorient the foot in the backswing and 90 degrees give you max range of motion and leverage back and forth to the target.

 

[slowplastic]

I think I'm feeling why I haven't been balanced on the left leg, or why I tend to step too far with the left foot instead of naturally being inside the balance during X-step, and why my weight kind of tips back during the X-step.

I'm sure I've been told this many times in different ways and with respect to spine angles or other things. Or shifting from the ground up. Starting the push like a speed skater kind of helped me think of it though.

So here are mirror image positions of Eagle's throw, from the drive off the rear foot to the catch on the front leg. When he drives off the rear leg he has the leading hip lower than the trailing hip, so it feels like he can lean forward and leverage forward off the rear foot, like you're committing to a forward push of your whole body as if you were running or skating. But then just before the foot touches down he turns more to THEN get into that shift from behind position, and the rear hip becomes lower than the front hip so that he is aligned to catch himself.

Basically, I feel like I have been set up for the shift from behind as I'm already getting onto my left leg, so my left hip is lower the whole time and I'm just falling down butt-first to my right leg, only to give a push at the last instant before I land. I think I should feel like I am pushing forward strongly from my left instep, then just re-aligning as I am about to do the last instant of catching myself to land butt-first to have that strong shift from behind feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

I got to throw like a dozen shots today with that hip feeling. This is definitely the right thing to do and the start of a big breakthrough. I know this because SW's drills all feel more intuitive now, rather than having to think of positions and movements. The kick the ball drill now makes perfect sense when I load this front hip to the planted hip, where before I would try to tilt my spine toward the target and it felt like a swinging motion rather than leverage. The ice skating back and forth feeling is very obvious to me now.

When only throwing a few shots like this, I had to concentrate on the lower body feeling and I lost that thought of disc slinging, so most shots were slightly nose up. I was just throwing with what felt like an "anchored walk" pace down the teepad, and was still throwing putters easily 300' and fairways 360-370' with neutral nose angle. I feel like there's tons in the tank when I get this honed in and don't have to concentrate on it, especially when my arm/disc are along for the ride correctly.

I also tried a couple FH shots like this, I can tell I wasn't doing it in FH before but instead just had a momentum based shift from behind landing. I feel a constant leverage/push with this lower body feel, but my release point was a bit off or late...that will take some zoning out of the lower body to get used to. But I really think this can boost my FH power too.

 

[sidewinder22]

so most shots were slightly nose up.

Go to Bratten's 2 finger grip.

 

[slowplastic]

Go to Bratten's 2 finger grip.

My arm/hit felt a bit off on the nose up shots. I really think it was that I couldn't just concentrate on the weight of the disc and get that full sling through...I was 100% focused on what my hips were doing. I cleanly flipped some less stable drivers over pretty good when I got them nose down and leveraged through them, it's definitely going to give me a strong pull through the hit. If I continue to have nose issues I will remember to explore grip.

I'm hoping to walk through these weight shift motions a bit so that next time I'm on the course I won't have to think about it so much. I always throw better when I can focus on the disc/hit and the line.

The "two step reciprocating dingle arm" just feels so strong and obvious now. Feels like ice skating back and forth. Once you catch your weight on one leg the soon to be leading hip is down and ready to be leveraged to the other side. You can really push off the back foot with tons of leverage, and then when you are about to catch on the other foot your hips are re-aligned/tilted to be balanced on that leg. The breakthrough to me is focusing on hip/pelvis alignment and leverage, rather than just spine alignment as in ride the bull with the pool cue demonstration.

https://youtu.be/GxnhM5amro0?t=190

 

[sidewinder22]

The "two step reciprocating dingle arm" just feels so strong and obvious now. Feels like ice skating back and forth.

 

[slowplastic]

Exactly those gifs.

 

[UhhNegative]

That speed skating gif is awesome. You can see how everything gets stacked up as he shifts from leg to leg, his hand up in the air counters the "rear leg" while his other arm stays close in.

Also just realized speed skaters are just continually "dabbing".

 

[azplaya25]

This thread might be better than any of the DGR threads linked in the sticky. SP goes through pretty much every struggle that all of us have faced. So many gold nuggets in here. Going to go ahead and bump this, hopefully someone else can learn as much as I did reading through this.

 

[Tepi]

Where did Slowplastic disappear?

 

[sidewinder22]

Where did Slowplastic disappear?

I talked to him sometime shortly before Covid. He said he was kind of burnt out from dg and enjoying snowboarding, was also busy with life stuff.