PDGA Board of Director Elections

[ru4por]

Thanks for responding Chris. Regardless of your differences it seems disingenuous to attribute a quote to someone you know they didn't make. I recon there are ways to say the same thing without using a fake quote.

Lol. In his defense, PM says nothing. Interpretation is all that we have. Though, I think that Chris's deciphering of PM's projection, is probably very close.

 

[SaROCaM]

-There are certain biological skeleto-muscular differences between men and women that gives a biological male a giant physical performance advantage over females.

Ever look at the other side of the coin at how women have physical performance advantages over men? For all the talk of testosterone as a performance enhancer, what do we know about the performance enhancing properties of estrogen? How it protects muscle membranes and curbs muscular fatigue over time? How it helps the body burn fat for energy once glycogen has been depleted?

-Thousands(maybe more) of years of evolving the female form for reproduction can't be equalized with a few years of hormone therapy.

It can't? What authority can you cite for this proposition? Why not, if thousands (maybe more) of years of evolving (X) can be addressed through medical interventions, outpatient procedures, etc.? If it can be equalized, what does that even mean? Since there is a broad spectrum of natural variation, what should be used to measure equality?

-Put identical height man and woman beside each other and the male will have longer arms and legs , greater skeletal and muscular mass especially in the upper half, higher % of fast twitch muscles, larger head , shorter torso, narrower pelvis, shallow femur angle ,etc.

Plenty of counter examples to this such that it de-weights the applicability to the evaluation of competition. Again, there is a spectrum of natural variation. There are lots of 5'8" women who would absolutely wipe the floor with lots of 5'8" men in various areas of physical performance.

-On average men are 5-6" taller than women. Heck I'm a short male at 5'8" which puts me in the 34th percentile for height but I would be in the 95th percentile as a female.

What is the point of this? Do you want to ban tall women? Are you saying women can't be tall unless they were first male?

All of those points speak to averages. Are you proposing restricting the pool of competitors to those who fit within an "average" profile?

Also, limiting the notion of what women can be to some selection of averages is reductive and arguably misogynistic. The scope of athletic performance capability of women is likely unknown since they have been faced with numerous barriers to overcome.

 

[PMantle]

In your clown world, if a trans woman is successful, it is because they have an unfair advantage. Ie, no trans woman can be allowed to have athletic success.

This makes zero sense. Why is the person having success? Did they have this level of success before? Of course they didn't because they weren't playing against women.

 

[RowingBoats]

The scope of athletic performance capability of women is likely unknown since they have been faced with numerous barriers to overcome.

People overlook this, a lot. There are multiple sports where female/male performance is starting to converge even at the pinnacle of what is possible.

Climbing, an extraordinarily physical sport, is seeing this. There are women making ascents that I probably would have said would be impossible 10 years ago.

There is still a huge societal difference between men and women in sports. From what I am seeing lately, I would place my bets that if we keep allowing things to shift into true equality, we will see women's peak performance increase noticeably in most athletic events.

There is also a lot to be said for people just saying "men better at physical" as a blanket statement. So many people that say **** like this would get wrecked sideways by middle-tier women in whatever sport they are talking about. This world is still extremely sexist, and a lot of the sentiment in this regard is probably built on a foundation of insecurity.

 

[crd 81]

In all of this discussion, where do those who have detransition fit into?

 

[PMantle]

Ever look at the other side of the coin at how women have physical performance advantages over men?

Let's absolutely look at this. In what sports do women openly compete against men and win? Any team sport? Any traditional track sport? Swimming? Tennis? Golf? Why not golf? Shouldn't putting be pretty even? It's perplexing for sure.

 

[PMantle]

Lol. In his defense, PM says nothing. Interpretation is all that we have. Though, I think that Chris's deciphering of PM's projection, is probably very close.

Why does this discussion you won't have make you so angry?

 

[SaROCaM]

This makes zero sense. Why is the person having success? Did they have this level of success before? Of course they didn't because they weren't playing against women.

This is consistent with the position that trans people transition to gain a (perceived) athletic advantage.

Objection, asked and answered.

 

[txmxer]

@SaROCaM

 

[gingerandhoney]

And I'll repeat it again.
ANY rule that enforces access to gender-based divisions that is based on physical characteristics; whether it is height, wingspan, monkey factor, shoulder width, fat %, hand size, anything..

it IS going to disproportionally hurt cisgender women more than transgender women.

Too tall? Sorry Juliana, sorry Hailey, sorry Henna, sorry Sarah. Oh, and sorry Nova.
Too shouldery? Sorry Kristin, sorry Sarah. Oh, and sorry Laura. Not sorry Natalie.
Not enough fat%? Sorry Henna, sorry Hailey, sorry Paige. Oh, and sorry Nova. Not sorry Natalie.
Too wingspanny? Sorry Juliana. Not sorry Natalie.

et cetera.

 

[PMantle]

This is consistent with the position that trans people transition to gain a (perceived) athletic advantage.

Objection, asked and answered.

What? lol

 

[PMantle]

And I'll repeat it again.
ANY rule that enforces access to gender-based divisions that is based on physical characteristics; whether it is height, wingspan, monkey factor, shoulder width, fat %, hand size, anything..

Literally no one wants to this happen based upon the characteristics you listed.

 

[RowingBoats]

Let's absolutely look at this. In what sports do women openly compete against men and win? Any team sport? Any traditional track sport? Swimming? Tennis? Golf? Why not golf? Shouldn't putting be pretty even? It's perplexing for sure.

Get back to me when our society catches up and the pool of children learning sports between men and women is comparable.

I believe something like 77% of golfers are men. There is a huge pool of women out there we have never seen attempt to master the sport. Sure, there are going to be lots of reasons for this discrepancy, but one of the big ones is certainly societal expectations and norms.

Coming in here 'perplexed' by this seems a little bit like you might be a disingenuous *******.

 

[gingerandhoney]

In all of this discussion, where do those who have detransition fit into?

If they were eligible to compete in gender-based divisions, AND they only suppressed their testosterone via gender-affirming hormone therapy, they'd instantly lose access.
Those who had orchiectomy (with or without gender-affirming surgery) performed could possibly lose access, but that'd be more of a personal choice than a medical choice, as their T levels are not going to be high enough anymore to warrant losing eligiblity.

If they used T to compete in mixed divisions, they'd become eligible again to compete in gender-based divisions, if they prove their T levels are low enough for long enough (12+ months) - basically the same requirements that trans women need to meet if they choose the gender-affirming hormone replacement therapy path.

 

[PMantle]

Get back to me when our society catches up and the pool of children learning sports between men and women is comparable.

I believe something like 77% of golfers are men. There is a huge pool of women out there we have never seen attempt to master the sport. Sure, there are going to be lots of reasons for this discrepancy, but one of the big ones is certainly societal expectations and norms.

Coming in here 'perplexed' by this seems a little bit like you might be a disingenuous *******.

No, not at all. I have never been able to explain the putting differences. All other aspects of golf I get.

On the get back with you part, I am sorry, but it's just not going to happen. Enough countries have programs that identify aptitude to where what your saying is not a factor. There are restricted divisions in all these sports for a reason.

 

[RowingBoats]

No, not at all. I have never been able to explain the putting differences. All other aspects of golf I get.

On the get back with you part, I am sorry, but it's just not going to happen. Enough countries have programs that identify aptitude to where what your saying is not a factor. There are restricted divisions in all these sports for a reason.

There is no country that tests for golf 'aptitude' in the general, non-golfing population, what the hell are you talking about lol?

The peak performance of any sport is going to come from a combination of mental interest in the activity, physical characteristics conducive to performance, and access to a lifetime of training structure.

Having 77% of a sport's participation be men is going to give men a way, way bigger chance at refining those peak performers.

 

[Dingus]

For the bystanders, "clown world" is some 4chan alt-right dog whistle language. It's meant to denigrate, depending on the context, LGBTQ people, black people, Jewish people, and the rest of their out-group.

Just so you know.

This is almost assuredly not correct. It is like asking you mom about modern slang.

 

[gingerandhoney]

People overlook this, a lot. There are multiple sports where female/male performance is starting to converge even at the pinnacle of what is possible.

Climbing, an extraordinarily physical sport, is seeing this. There are women making ascents that I probably would have said would be impossible 10 years ago.

There is still a huge societal difference between men and women in sports. From what I am seeing lately, I would place my bets that if we keep allowing things to shift into true equality, we will see women's peak performance increase noticeably in most athletic events.

There is also a lot to be said for people just saying "men better at physical" as a blanket statement. So many people that say **** like this would get wrecked sideways by middle-tier women in whatever sport they are talking about. This world is still extremely sexist, and a lot of the sentiment in this regard is probably built on a foundation of insecurity.

EXACTLY THIS.

And add to that confirmation bias and stereotype threat on the psychological side that women are facing.


In the transgender women in sports discussion, amost everybody is exclusively focused on "nature".
Almost everyone, unknowingly or deliberately (because it doesn't fit the narrative) ignores the "nurture" aspect.

*Men are stronger than women!!* Hyper-generalised that is probably true; on a 1-on-1 comarison it likely isn't.

.

Did the parents of the young boy give the boy a ball, and did the father go toss said ball with the boy? All the while, their twin sister getting a Barbie doll...

Boys are most often encouraged to hone their athletic performance potential, while girls are not.

That reaults in particiption, and also in cold and hard data of hours spent practicing and competing, and even learning HOW to compete psychologically.

Revenue also comes into play here as well. Women's sports were deemed unviable, because there was no market, becaue there was no visibility, and no 'meaningful competition'; but that is cart before horse; the CAUSE and EFFECT are inverted.
But as a result, resources and facilities lack seriouly.

Who here remembers the NCAA Basketball March Madness outrage over the "slightly different resources made available to women"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SrGB_P3iGU
THAT!
Where were all the men protecting women's sports THEN?!?

Why was there so much outrage over the equal payout checks for DGPT Champs?!?!

With equitable reources provided to men and women; the performance gap shrinks noticeably (look at association football for the best exmple here).
There's literally 6 countries in the world where the women earn the same, and get the same resources as the men.
Until about 50 years ago, it was forbidden for women to even compete.

Said resources allow te women to train, practice, improve as much as the men can.

And that diminishes the performance gap between men and women.

Sure, "nature" still is important.
BUT
Without "nurture" that potential advantage "nature" could have given is useless.

 

[Nova P]

Not enough fat%? Sorry Henna, sorry Hailey, sorry Paige. Oh, and sorry Nova.

You flatter me. I'm like 20 pounds overweight, it just disperses really well on a frame that's almost two meters long.

 

[SaROCaM]

Let's absolutely look at this. In what sports do women openly compete against men and win? Any team sport? Any traditional track sport? Swimming? Tennis? Golf? Why not golf? Shouldn't putting be pretty even? It's perplexing for sure.

Women ultrarunners compete against men and win. Jasmin Paris won the Montane Spine Race, obliterating the competition (the fastest man wasn't even close; a man who previously won the race had to drop out with 4 miles to go.)

Jen Thompson is a 5'5" 138lb woman who bench presses 330 lbs. Looking at some powerlifting meet results, she would beat the top male from a similar weight class, and in some instances I saw, she would have beaten the top male from the next higher weight class.

Billie Jean King beat Bobby Riggs in straight sets in tennis, winning $100k.

Again, women have had barriers to overcome, from societal pressures and attitudes, participation bans, to downright inequality in terms of facilities, equipment, medical treatment, etc. Despite that, they have been able to overcome and are making great progress. Look at Sydney McLaughlin, pushing the world record in the 400m hurdles to the brink of breaking 50 seconds. Now, you might say that the men's record is 46 seconds. But if you consider that men's athletics has had quite a headstart with fewer barriers than women's athletics, then a more fair comparison would be accounting for the effect of those barriers. It is difficult if not impossible to quantify the effects of these barriers, but what if it means that women's sports are essentially a century behind? The men's record back then was 54 seconds. Okay, what if it isn't a century behind, what if it is only 75 years behind? The men's record back then was…50.6 seconds.

Again, impossible to quantify all these, and I'm not going to say that there are no advantages. But let's not overlook the other advantages and disadvantages on the other side of the coin. It isn't as simple as testosterone vs. estrogen.